Post Divorce: My little girl misses her Mom. I'm getting angry. [long]

In My Humble Opinion
141

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
Belrix, it would not be the first time a doctor, even one that knows the kid really well, makes a mistake. I hear stories about this kind of stuff all the time…“my doctor told me for years it was nothing until I finally went to get a second opinion…and then I was already in the advanced stages.”

Why wouldn’t you get a second opinion?

And I don’t think Shayna deserves the stuff you said in your last sentence. Nasty.
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I rethought it and edited in time. You’re right - it was nasty. I apologize, that’s not my usual language.

142

[QUOTE=Belrix]
I rethought it and edited in time. You’re right - it was nasty. I apologize, that’s not my usual language.
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Thank you.

We are just worried about your little girl. Please, that’s all. Even I am worried. I wouldn’t be particularly happy about an adult taking that much Tylenol PM, and for a little body like that…we just want her to be happy and healthy.

143

[QUOTE=Belrix]
God God. You’ll take the word of a stranger, a nurse, over the Doctor who knows my kid. Get off your high and mighty, holier-than-thou horse.
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Well, I hate to say it because I really do want to take people at their words but I don’t believe that her doctor said that. Any doctor worth his license isn’t going to make such an ignorant statement as fact without first doing a simple blood test.

Even bad doctors are far too concerned about malpractice suits these days to take such a chance. A good doctor wants to be sure for the sake of their patient. Even if that doctor is giving you his best guess, why on earth as her FATHER wouldn’t YOU insist on a blood test? I mean, this would be a golden opportunity to blame your ex-wife if her liver enzymes were too high.

Her doctor might know your kid, but IME with doctors who are thorough and caring… her doctor is nuts. That is, if what you’re saying is true.

144

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
Well, I hate to say it because I really do want to take people at their words but I don’t believe that her doctor said that.
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Surely you can see that Belrix cannot make any response to this that is likely to satisfy you. Would you like him to mail you a medical record?

I’m not trying to step into the middle of this, but IME “I think you’re lying” is pretty much a conversation-stopper. It also tends to piss people off, for obvious reasons.

145

[QUOTE=Belrix]
I believe that only one pill was given because my 8 year old knows how to count.

I think the Tylenol subject is pretty much covered & closed but you’re trying hard to (a) get the last word in and (b) make sure you stay right.
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I think everyone else is wasting their time giving you great advice about the other issues. I fail to see how if you can’t do one little thing like taking your daughter to the doctor to make sure her goddamn liver is functioning correctly - how you’re going to take any of the other advice which will require a hell of alot more effort.

146

[QUOTE=Jodi]
Surely you can see that Belrix cannot make any response to this that is likely to satisfy you. Would you like him to mail you a medical record?

I’m not trying to step into the middle of this, but IME “I think you’re lying” is pretty much a conversation-stopper. It also tends to piss people off, for obvious reasons.
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This isn’t a contest or a test in which he has to satisfy me. Your sarcasm about the medical record is adorable, btw.

I honestly don’t care if it pisses him off, I’m giving my opinion based on working with hundreds and hundreds of doctors. Doctors don’t like to make statements about the health of someone without having some kind of fact to back them up. How easy it is to dismiss everyone’s concern with a quick “Oh I called the doctor.” response.

For someone who is hell-bent on showing us what a great parent he is, it’s pretty surprising that he isn’t interested in making sure with a small test. This, for me, comes down to either an incompetent doctor or someone lying to defend their position. Going on my experience with doctors and my experience with reading his spewing post(s)… I made my choice. Pisses him off? Don’t care. Conversation stopper? Whatever floats his boat.

Either way, what’s your concern?

147

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
This isn’t a contest or a test in which he has to satisfy me.
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Could’ve fooled me. Maybe the reason he’s so hell-bent on proving what a good parent he is, as you put it, is because of how many people have been attacking him in this thread (and a lot of the criticisms that have been made were attacks rather than advice). Maybe, just maybe, if you all would back off a little, he’d be in a presence of mind to actually listen to you guys and respond in a clam manner, as he did after Jodi and Whynot posted their novellas about 50 posts ago.

148

[QUOTE=Jayn_Newell]
Could’ve fooled me. Maybe the reason he’s so hell-bent on proving what a good parent he is, as you put it, is because of how many people have been attacking him in this thread (and a lot of the criticisms that have been made were attacks rather than advice). Maybe, just maybe, if you all would back off a little, he’d be in a presence of mind to actually listen to you guys and respond in a clam manner, as he did after Jodi and Whynot posted their novellas about 50 posts ago.
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Have you read any of his previous posts regarding this same situation? You have to be joking.

He has been given a lot of good advice that he has refused many times. He is posting his dirty laundry for all to see and digest, in IMHO no less. If you’re willing to believe everything you read as fact, more power to you. Things that just don’t make sense raise concerns for me. Not for you? Great for you.

When one insists on posting such private things repeatedly on the internet they are getting what they want. Attention and advice. He can certainly filter that advice and use what he likes, but if you don’t want honest opinions… don’t put your private issues on a public messageboard. I’ve read enough of his stuff to absorb the fact that he will continue to do what makes him happy.

YMMV, and apparently does. That’s super.

149

Thank you, Jayn, but I’m sure I’m not going to make these people happy.

If I said I took my daughter to the doctor and had her blood tested and she’s fine, they’d probably accuse me of lying about that, too. Momma and Butterfly are determined to rant, dead set against believing me, and I’m accepting of that now.

I started a posting where I found facts about liver damage, how the liver heals including a specific example for a 50% liver cell kill-off from Tylenol. Then I decided it wouldn’t help at all.

They’d rather I go into the doctor’s office, against his professional advice, and subject my otherwise asymptomatic daughter to having blood drawn - something that I know would outright terrify her - in order to detect the statistically slim possibility of liver damage that would very likely completely self repair within 30 days on its own now that she’s stopped taking the med.

Based on what I’ve read, a liver enzyme test two months from now might be more revealing concerning any non-reversible damage.

There’s no need to believe me, though. I’m probably lying.

150

I’m not a medical professional and I haven’t worked with hundreds of doctors but yeah, my gut impression has been the same as Sleeps With Butterflies. Every single one of these whining threads has the same undercurrent of ranting with the guise of asking for advice. The advice is always argued and my sense is that it’s never taken, because he doesn’t want advice – he wants validation for his rage and resentment. And you know, I can’t blame him for that but this board isn’t going to be a satisfying venue for that purpose.

But if you must do it here, Belrix, if that’s what you want then why not just be honest about it and start your threads in MPSIMS? You’d save yourself and many posters a lot of time and frustration.

151

Belrix–all I can suggest is that you stop posting here for a bit and think about all the things people have said (well, not all the things–it’s amazing to me how harsh people can get online). Work on one thing at a time with Sally. Talk to the doctor (blood tests are not done willy-nilly), try to talk to your Ex. You might want to write out what you want to say re arranging the phone calls. And then re-write and rewrite it until you can say it calmly and courteously. I might even run it by current wife. It may sound silly, but it works.

“we have a problem with the late evening phone call. Sally is upset after the calls and has trouble settling down for the night. The call needs to come earlier in the evening. Let’s try it this weekend --what time is good for you-5 or 6?”

Something like that. I have no doubt that Ex will cause a fuss–she seems to live for fusses/obstacles. Whatever–that’s her deal. Let her carry on and then calmly reiterate. Don’t get sucked into the crazy–stay on message. This actually works well, but you must remain calm and polite–not one speck of snark or anger can appear or you have lost ground.

I wish you luck. You’re in a hard spot right now. It’s good you’re concerned. I’m glad you’re contacting a therapist as well.

152

[QUOTE=Fiveroptic]
I’m not a medical professional and I haven’t worked with hundreds of doctors but yeah, my gut impression has been the same as Sleeps With Butterflies. Every single one of these whining threads has the same undercurrent of ranting with the guise of asking for advice. The advice is always argued and my sense is that it’s never taken, because he doesn’t want advice – he wants validation for his rage and resentment. And you know, I can’t blame him for that but this board isn’t going to be a satisfying venue for that purpose.

But if you must do it here, Belrix, if that’s what you want then why not just be honest about it and start your threads in MPSIMS? You’d save yourself and many posters a lot of time and frustration.
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Sigh…

I called my daughter’s doctor (really!) based on suggestions gotten from this thread.

I sent my wife the link to the “third-party authority/Doctor” article linked in this thread and we discussed its ramifications. (We agree with the “last resort” comment - seems too deceptive and reduces the authority we’re trying to develop with her)

I discussed the “put back to bed, no discussion, no drama” tactic with my wife - we’re probably going to start this.

I sent an email to my ex detailing Sally’s behavior last week and suggesting we move the evening phone call to an earlier time. This takes buy-in from my ex because the current agreement allows the children to call anytime and this is going to change that.

Yes - lots of drama - but I can sift and have, sifted for ideas.

If you check my posting history, go back more than a year to when my ex and I started disintegrating, you’ll find a mixture of MPSIMS, GQ, & IMHO. I know which forum is which.

Now if you’ll forgive me, it’s day’s end for me.

ETA: Some people will want proof:

<Ex>,

I need to tell you about some of what happened at the house this past week.

<Sally> asked that K- (sp?) stay overnight on about Tuesday. Well, it was late notice so we told her that Thursday was better. That night, K- spent time away from <Sally> some, I think disappointing her, but on the whole it was a good visit. Like little girls do, they stayed up late that night. The next day she watched a Zombie movie at K-'s house, it was too much for her and she spent that evening scared that monsters were going to get her. She stayed up last that night too (and called you twice I think) both saying she was scared and that she missed you.

I think it was Saturday she missed connecting with you because you worked late? Whichever night, it was especially bad. “I can’t sleep until I hear Mommy’s voice.” She was up late again crying about missing you.

Some of the “missing mom” reaction was, no doubt, the result of two nights of poor sleep. Still, I think the problem is genuine, although made worse by sleepiness..

I think it would help <Sally> if you talked with her and reinforced that some nights you will be unable to talk with her. You have an adult life and have to do adult things and somethings those things keep you from answering the phone.

I am not trying to keep her from talking to you every day if she wants to, but it seems very stressful for <Sally> when she can’t reach you or you can’t return the call right away. Perhaps if you know you’ll be unavailable that night, and she hasn’t called you yet, you could call her before you go out. Right now that nightly contact with you is very important to her.

I’d like to try to encourage her to call a little earlier in the evening - just before bed seems upsetting at times and she’s not getting time to calm down before sleep. If we started the call earlier, she might be able to get to sleep a little easier after a cool-down period. The last time she called you in the evening, she insisted on having a just-before-bed call, too. I’d might have to say “One call only.” What do you think?

By the way, I know (and <Sally> knows) you tried to return that call about a half hour after her attempt but by that time <Sally> had gone to bed and the phone was in the kitchen where it lives at night. (The kitchen location was to solve the arguments about night-time access to the phone.)

By the way, I talked with Dr. A- about the effectiveness of Benedryl as a sleep aid and he believes that new studies are confirming that it’s a poor sleep aid. He doesn’t recommend its use for sleep.

153

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
He has been given a lot of good advice that he has refused many times. He is posting his dirty laundry for all to see and digest, in IMHO no less.
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Why don’t you just Pit him and be done with it? If you don’t believe what he says, and he has no way of proving it to you, where is this conversation going? I’m not even taking sides. I feel really sorry for Belrix, whose situation seems quite fucked up and difficult, but also think he has made some mistakes.

However, I do totally agree with you here:

I can’t understand for the life of me why Belrix keeps posting installments of this saga on the SDMB. The threads never go well and are always painful and crazy to read. They should be aired in a therapist’s office, in private, where the person listening is supportive and constructive, not anonymous, biased (not entirely wrongly, either), and sometimes mean-spirited

154

Okay.

Ultimately I wish the best for all of you and hope that a healthy solution is found for everyone involved.

155

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
This isn’t a contest or a test in which he has to satisfy me.
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Gosh, then basically calling him a liar when you can’t prove it is pretty pointless, innit? I’m no big fan; I too get frustrated that he repeatedly asks for advice but seems to never appreciate what is offered, and nothing seems to change anyway. But I don’t call people liars when I can’t prove it, because it pisses people off, hijacks the conversation, and makes me sound like dick.

I try, sweetie; I try.

156

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Why don’t you just Pit him and be done with it? If you don’t believe what he says, and he has no way of proving it to you, where is this conversation going? I’m not even taking sides. I feel really sorry for Belrix, whose situation seems quite fucked up and difficult, but also think he has made some mistakes.
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As much as he has (since I first posted my opinion about the lying) thrown “proof” into each and every comment he makes, I don’t care a bit about proof. I’m not asking him to prove it, I’m simply saying I don’t believe him. That’s MY opinion. His kid isn’t my problem, so proving it to me is quite pointless. I am stating an opinion.

So he can wring his hands and play the victim and keep throwing “proof!” into each post to garner sympathy. That’s his deal. Why should I Pit him? I care enough to give my opinion about his lying, but I’ve never gotten the thrill some people derive from taking it to the Pit. I said what I have to say here. Making a Pit post has always smacked (to me) in a lot of situations as a hope for others to agree with you. People can read and make their own decisions right here. Whether anyone agrees with me or not is really not something that concerns me.

Ultimately he will do what he wants to do regardless of what anyone says. That’s his deal. It’s his family that will or won’t suffer. My limit of caring ends when I close the window. He’s the one who has to live it, so the decisions are his.

[QUOTE=Jodi]
Gosh, then basically calling him a liar when you can’t prove it is pretty pointless, innit? I’m no big fan; I too get frustrated that he repeatedly asks for advice but seems to never appreciate what is offered, and nothing seems to change anyway. But I don’t call people liars when I can’t prove it, because it pisses people off, hijacks the conversation, and makes me sound like dick.

I try, sweetie; I try.
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Gosh Sugarlumps, I was giving my opinion… not asking for proof. In my opinion either the doctor is incompetent or he is lying. I weighed the information I have on doctors and on his posts and I made my choice. If that ruffles your widdle feathers, I’m not sure what to tell you.

If you did cut to the chase and say something you believe, people might think you’re a dick. That’s true. Or you could continue with the exaggerated sarcasm and silly-willy cutesy names and just hint at being one. It all amounts to the same thing, and I’m sure neither of us will lose sleep about what we think of each other.

157

Pit, Sunshine.

158

[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
I’m not asking him to prove it, I’m simply saying I don’t believe him. That’s MY opinion.
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Thing is, it’s either true or it isn’t. It’s not really a matter of opinion if his doctor said that. If he really did talk to his doctor, and his doctor disagreed with your opinion, to whom should he listen? That’s why your continued harping on this seems pointless and kind of mean.

Correction: what you perceive as his lying. It is by no means established that he is actually lying. And calling someone a liar can be fightin’ words. There’s no way for him to disprove your claim that he’s a liar. Being called a liar actually really bothers some people, and they will try very hard to prove their honesty, beyond the point where they should just give up, in which case they will be accused of being an attention whore. So he really can’t win, can he?

Far be it for me to tell you what to do, but at this point, you’ve clearly established that you think he’s a liar and you have contempt for him dating back to other threads. If you don’t want to Pit him and really don’t care about him or his family, then what’s the purpose of hanging around this crushingly depressing thread?

FTR, I think you’re right that he should have his daughter’s liver enzymes tested, because I’m paranoid like that and I would insist on it. However, it could be seen by the kid’s mom as a power play/drama inducing move/implicit accusation of malfeasance, esp. if the doctor says it’s unnecessary. It could cause all kinds of new bullshit for Belrix with his ex. My point is, this situation is quite complicated, and it’s all too easy to backseat drive with other people’s lives. This is also why I think posting this stuff here is a mistake, another point on which I agree with you.

ETA: Didn’t see Jodi’s post above mine until I hit SEND. Ah well.

159

I’ve been reading without posting, but at this point I want to say a few things:

First, doctors miss things and get things wrong, just like everyone else. That’s how one of my relatives got to stage 3 ovarian cancer–her doctor did not examine her, instead telling her that what she was experiencing was probably gastric upset.

Second, I’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that a parent wouldn’t immediately seek a medical examination for a child who is at risk. I just don’t get it.

160

I don’t take Tylenol PM but I do take a couple of Benadryl most everynight. I do this because I have allergies but in the past I was told by my doctor to take them for sleep issues. HE told me I could take several everynight for the rest of my life without any problems. He gave me a prescription to start with a heavier dose than the otc stuff and the label said to take 2 to 8 per night. My uncle was recently told by his doctor to take a couple of Benedryl to help him sleep.

Adhemar

[QUOTE=CairoCarol]
I won’t even address most of what’s in the OP, except to say that my heart goes out to everyone involved and there is some good advice upthread which I hope Belrix will take.

I have to speak up on the Tylenol PM, however: There is a legitimate focus here on the acetominophen aspect of Tylenol PM, but I might add: has anybody (like Belrix, for example) actually TAKEN that stuff? The aceominophen isn’t the whole story; the sleep-inducing drug is like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer. I’m an adult, and I take 1/4 to 1/2 dose, and even that rarely as the sleep you get isn’t a restful, refreshing sleep, it is more like being unconscious (and sometimes interspersed with unpleasant episodes of disoriented waking up). It is preferable to sleeplessness only after prolonged insomnia.

One of my friends is 260 pounds, and HE takes 1/2 a dose of Tylenol PM because it is so strong.

I second all the calls to talk to a doctor about this, Belrix, but seriously - if you’ve never used the stuff yourself, I’d take a full dose just once to see what your daughter might be experiencing. For her, in all likelihood 1/2 dose would easily have as much impact as a full dose on an adult.
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