I asked: “why should he ignore those of us who are telling the truth?”
Mangetout responded:
Until and unless there is evidence that shows otherwise, yup.
Mambo also responded:
And your evidence for this is what?
Maybe you cannot argue it. We can.
Bullshit. I don’t need faith to look at evidence.
Both were true statements berdollos. It is difficult to answer your question directly because there isn’t a “chant” to recite and ‘presto’ you get your wish. I hope that isn’t what you were asking for.
I have had many prayers answered and I have always approached Him with my heart for guidance and inner strength. Whenever I have asked for either, I have always received them.
SexyWriter
Well now that I’m certain of where your coming from, nevermind. I learned a long time ago that there is little value in explaining something to someone who isn’t willing to listen. I won’t waste your time or mine.
And I thought I had too much time on my hands!
Are your prayers along these lines? “Lord, please give me guidance and please give me the strength to deal with this challenge.” I use this prayer often, and am sometimes rewarded. That would seem to answer the OP’s question:
The question that I have is this: can we claim that the answer to such a prayer is necessarily God’s answer? Did God send me strength and guidance, or did it come from within myself? How can I prove one way or another?
Tracer
Dawson’s human body was not female, but male. That you elect to taunt his grandmother is your privilege, but it says nothing about either him or her, but only about you. Dawson has been perfectly healed. He is alive, and has already comforted his mother. I recommend that you retreat a bit from your campaign to stamp out ignorance, as your own head is very likely to be smashed under your boot.
What’s the difference?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Edlyn *
**
Wait, where am I coming from? I asked an honest question about prayers to other deities that people think have been answered. When you can’t answer the question, it’s impolite to say “nevermind” like a child and act like I’m the idiot. It was a perfectly reasonable question.
-L
I’ve been thinking about this, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the assertion “you can not prove a negative” is not a negative assertion. It is a positive statement - i.e. that it is impossible to prove X. This can indeed be proved - for example one can prove the impossibility of something by relating its consequences to the Halting problem.
The “negative” referred to actually means the lack of something - i.e. in this case the lack of existance of God. And I’m pretty sure that it was this that Popper dealt with, that has lead to the cliched “You can’t prove a negative”.
If you don’t agree with this **Lib], then how would you suggest that one goes about proving the lack of existance of something? All hail the IPU and her holy hooves etc etc.
pan
SexyWriter
I do understand that you think that your question was quite reasonable, but with the callous attitude that accompanies it (i.e., “Didn’t they think to send an anti-cancer prayer in time” followed by “…And?”) it became unreasonable to me. The answers you seek can only be provided by those who have gone through that particular kind of trial. Believe me when I advise you that I was being polite.
AlbertRose
No, not exactly that way. I approach my Father in the same way I approached my dad.
Edlyn, it is condescendingly presumptuous of you to presume SexyWriter has never “been through such a trial.”
But even if she hasn’t, (and I haven’t, for the record), I don’t see how it’s callous to question the effectiveness of anti-cancer prayer even when faced with an instance of someone with cancer. Compassion and skepticism are not mutually exclusive qualities.
Even if someone with cancer, praying for it to get better, was posting to this very thread, I would not hesitate to express both my sorrow at their illness and my doubt that their prayers would work.
My read on your exchange with SexyWriter is as follows:
S: Prayers against cancer don’t work.
E: Don’t say that! Look here: someone really has cancer!
S: I still say prayers against cancer don’t work.
E: How can you be so callous?
If that’s an inaccurate summary, please tell me how. If not, you’ve made no contribution to this debate.
Libertarian wrote:
Woops – I read that webpage too quickly. (From the age range and the condition of the poor kid in the picture, it was kinda hard to tell gender one way or the other. If I’d paid better attention to the pronouns, I wouldn’t have made such a blunder.)
Actually, I wasn’t taunting his grandmother, I was taunting Edlyn. Although I could have misinterpreted Edlyn’s brief message, I got the impression she was implying something along the lines of “Don’t say prayer doesn’t work, because there’s a little kid dying of cancer.”
Yeah – that I’ll draw a parallel between the alleged power of prayer to cure diseases, and the way Peter Pan saved Tinkerbell.
Ah. That was not clear in the link Edlyn presented at all. If that’s the case, and Dawson really is out of danger, then I’d think my “taunting” would have even less of an impact on his grandmother. (In the unlikely case Dawson’s grandmother is reading this thread.)
Did Edlyn know that Dawson was cured, too? Does that mean she believes that the prayers actually had an effect on Dawson’s cancer? Do you believe that the prayers had an effect on Dawson’s cancer? If so, how do you distinguish Dawson’s case from that of other children who survived cancer but who weren’t prayed over?
I know you are, but what am I? 
What is the problem with proving a negative?
Nothing, generally speaking. It is easy enough to prove that 1 + 1 does not equal 3 if we specify the right conditions.
What is the problem with proving an unrestricted negative?
Everything. You cannot prove that somewhere in space and time 1 + 1 does not equal 3.
Why do people have such an issue with this?
I don’t know. Perhaps lack of absolute knowledge can be frightening to some people. You can prove a negative, but you can’t prove an unrestricted negative.
The argument develops from there: what is the evidence for God? Very little, if any. Can we explain everything we come in contact with without using the unknown and antiquated element “God”? As it turns out, we do a pretty good job of that. In fact, we do rather better at investigating the Universe without concepts of God than with. Therefore, while God may exist because it cannot be proved that somewhere and sometime God does not exist, and because we have no evidence of God, the concept of God becomes unnecessary to our universe.
As for prayers having an effect beyond that of a placebo, well that is nothing more than a pseudoscientific claim at best, unverified by any scientist. Einmal ist keinmal.
Tracer
Edlyn is Dawson’s grandmother.
I don’t quite understand what is going on here. It appears that everyone has a different definition of what it means for “prayer that actually works”.
If by “something I prayed about happened”, then certainly I can find something. Take a hammer. Pray it will fall when you release it. Release it. Bravo!
If you mean, “this unlikely thing happened,” then sooner or later an unlikely thing will happen. Bravo!
If you mean, “Every time I pray for an unlikely thing, it will happen,” sorry folks. God is not a buck private. He doesn’t take orders.
Now, I can understand someone agonizing over the fact that someone they love is suffering horrible pain. I can understand someone suffering horrible pain themselves. I can understand that they pray about it, and the difficult situation does not get better, and they feel like prayer “doesn’t work”. But this is not a difficulty with prayer, really (see above about buck privates). This is a difficulty about why evil things happen in a world with a loving God. Why did He say, “No?” That is a whole other subject than the one of the OP.
The thing is, the basic subject of the OP is wrong headed. Prayer is not magic. People praying are not casting magic spells. They are not administering drugs for relief of cancer, or pain, or anything else. Prayer is talking with God. If you admit that God exists, then prayer works by definition; God hears you when you address Him. There is no way that prayer can not work. If you do not admit that God exists, then the question in the OP is moot.
So certainly prayer works, by any of the definitions above. Prayer always works by any of the definitions that do not admit of “unlikely things”. This whole discussion got started on the wrong track; we are not talking about whether prayer works, but about why evil things happen if God really hears our prayers. And that is an entirely different question.
Edlyn said:
You pray for the keys to the car?
Primaflora wrote:
Uh … I think I’d better go crawl back under my rock now.
[SUB]The above message is the opinion of the author only, and does not necessarily reflect this station’s views on whether prayers had any effect on Dawson’s cancer.[/SUB]
Tracer, I fail to see why you should crawl under a rock. Edlyn made a totally invalid point, which you mocked. Mocking a point is NOT the same as mocking a horrible tragedy.
Flymaster wrote:
Well … I did also write these 2 sentences in my response to Libertarian:
“I wasn’t taunting his grandmother, I was taunting Edlyn.”
“(In the unlikely case Dawson’s grandmother is reading this thread.)”
“Did Edlyn know that Dawson was cured, too?”
… which look rather silly now that I know Edlyn is Dawson’s grandmother.
True … but it probably woulda been more effective if my understanding of the Dawson situation had been a tad bit more well-informed. I get all flustered when one or more of the facts I use to support my argument is wrong.
And may I say, also – you know those song lyrics that are on the Dawson-with-cancer webpage? The lyrics to Mark Schultz’s song “He’s My Son”? Well, I’ve heard that song on the radio several times, and I was struck by how the singer uses this neat reverb effect to give an eerie double-meaning to the last 4 lines.
**
I had faith, but prayer didn’t work for me.
Frankly, I find this to be a little inappropriate. One could just as well say that people who think prayer works are clearly delusional, and therefore aren’t clear-headed enough to offer valid opinions. Don’t you think it’s a little rude to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is de facto deficient and therefore can’t participate in the discussion?
-Ben
Tracer
I would not have you to crawl under a rock. Though I admonished you, I respect you very much.
Edlyn and I (and all our friends) prayed for Dawson’s healing. The healing God elected for our grandson was a total healing, a liberation of his beautiful Spirit. Dawson went home and waits for us there. We could not be more thankful to our merciful and gracious Lord. Shortly after his body died, Dawson’s mother experienced him, similar to the manner in which Mary experienced the angel who told her of her coming pregnancy. After this, his mother felt an enormous peace and closure.
As it happens, Dawson’s little sister, Camden Mercy, was born ten days before he breathed his last. We likewise thank our merciful and gracious Lord for her. In case you didn’t know, Edlyn is my wife. Dawson and Camden are my step-grandchildren. And you are (still) my Doper friend. 