Prayers that Actually Work

This is a very sad story. I understand how faith and prayer made you feel better about your loss and helped you cope with it.

However, this heart wrenching story doesn’t answer the question we were dicussing, which, though it’s a bit away from the OP, is “does prayer work?”

And my addition to this conversation (as I understood it, anyway) was to question whether those of OTHER faiths or who pray to other gods that you might find ludicrous don’t get the same sense of peace and a “purpose served” by their OWN methods. Say, meditation, chanting, studying zen practices, etc. All of these things serve the same purpose you claim was served by praying over your grandson.

-L

Libertarian wrote:

Oh, geez … so when you said, “He is alive,” I guess you were using a rather different definition of alive than is usual?

While I appreciate the metaphor, your meaning seems intentionally hard-to-decipher sometimes.

:smiley: I knew someone would come back with that comment.

Fiver and Flymaster

Perhaps if you go back and reread the original post I responded to, it might make it a little clearer to you. My link was not to point out “here’s a kid with cancer”, but to bring gravity to the subject brought up that I felt the original post was making light of, or perhaps even mocking a bit… most particularly with the last sentence. A (grand)parent’s prayers for a child with cancer is not a game or just a subject to be tossed around casually. SexyWriter has now clarified the direction he/she wishes for further discussion and as such, I will consider the matter dropped. In future posts I’ll try to be more clear so I don’t feed misunderstandings.

Tracer

I guess it depends on one’s perspective, but the confusion gave me a few laughs.

SexyWriter

God is the “higher power” sought no matter how you seek to reach Him or by what name (or not) you attach to Him. But since you do not believe in prayer, why do you ask? :confused:

Ben wrote:

Well, obviously, you must not’ve had faith hard enough. :rolleyes:

Faith in what? Dammit. :rolleyes:

I could tell you about some prayers that have actually worked, but how could I present it to you in a way that didn’t seem subjective and biased?

How could I actually prove I prayed at all in the first place and that i’m not just retrospectively picking some happy event and claiming that ‘I asked God to do that’ ?

Even if you were convinced that I had prayed for something in advance of it happening, you could always choose to put it down to coincidence or whatever.

Sometimes the things that I have prayed for and received are intangible anyway (like peace, patience, or just plain answers), so how could I show them to you. (and anyway, you could easily explain these away even though I know they came from beyond me)

In the end, I have loads of proof, but not the sort that will convince anyone but myself.

Do you remember the night when we all first heard about Princess Diana’s terrible accident? People all around the world that night prayed for her to survive; prayed that such a positive contributor to the world would not be taken from us so soon. Devout Christians, not-so-devout Christians, and I suppose Jews, Muslims… heck, even I prayed for her.

My guess is that more prayers were said that night than at any other time in history, and all of them asking the same thing: Please don’t let her die.

But she died anyway, didn’t she. This was no party trick or self indulgent request. This was a prayer for a real human being that was contributing to the betterment of the world, and all the prayers in the world didn’t save her.

If God’s not going to bother answering that kind of outpouring, I’m not going to waste my time with him.

Bill Norton
Austin, TX

Mangetout wrote:

Simple. We could do a double-blind placebo trial.

We take a group of volunteers, and randomly divide them into two groups: the “control” group, and the “experimental” group. The members of the “experimental” group pray real prayers. The members of the “control” group are given placebo prayers. At the end of the trial, the test-administrators ask the participants whether their prayers actually worked, and if so, what percentage of their prayers worked and what percentage didn’t work.

Since the participants do not know whether they’re praying real prayers or placebo prayers, the trial is said to be “blind.” We make it “double-blind” by having the test administrators also kept in the dark as to whether each participant was praying for real or using a placebo, so that their line of questioning won’t give away any clues to the participants. Then, we tabulate the results, and if there is a statistically significant difference in the rate of prayer success between the control group and the experimental group, then we can say, with certainty, that prayers actually work.

So! Who wants to volunteer?

bnorton, I do not think that this is a valid example since Diana was dead by the time we heard about the accident. Also, I think a lesson could’ve been learned by comparing public reaction of her death to the reaction of Mother Teresa’s death which was only a few days later. The words you heard describing Diana, such as honorable, good, postive, loving, etc., can, I hope no one argues this, also be attributed to MT perhaps even more dramatically. Yet no one seemed to care when MT died. To me it proved that the world is more amazed by glamour and prestige than by someone who devotes her entire life to a cause.

Pretty clever, I’ll acknowledge. :slight_smile:

And now to face my executioners about faith and prayer. I have heard an explanation of faith that I will pass on. There are three types of faith: natural, rational, and experiential. All humans, primitive and civilized, have in them a natural faith, instilled by God, which compels them to believe in a higher power (though not neccessarily God). This faith gives them a sense of right and wrong and a feeling of weakness and vulnerability (to nature, other men, etc.). Primitive men thus started worshipping the sun, the moon, the sea. Civilized man, however, did not pursue these natural objects as gods but started developing philosophy and science and other things to bring comfort to themselves. Although the paths were different, the goal was to appease the same built-in consience we all have. As J.P. Sartre complained, “Man is a useless lost hope.”

Rational faith is when we try to assimilate the divine revelations and tenets of natural faith. It is an attempt to understand what cannot be comprehended by reason alone. But this type of faith tries to simplify the truth, thus distorting it, and does not accept that we are in over our heads when we try to understand the world by ourselves.

Experiential faith is the faith that takes a stand. Faith “is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8) and is what keep you with God when the going gets tough and allows you to turn back to God when you become enslaved in sin. This faith is given to you when you accept the fact that you are a sinner, vulnerable, and hopeless without God. You must turn to God (through Christ) to receive this faith. You cannot just give it lip service, you must truly be willing to accept the truth. You then start seeing some amazing things in your life. You feel secure and peacable, confident that you are on the path to salvation (thus getting rid of that nagging fear of death all humans have), you feel more love in your life and are able to find good when ther only seems to be evil. Most importantly, as you read the Scripture, pray, and start trying to lead your life the way it is commanded your relationship with God grows and more is revealed to you.

Does prayer work? Yes, when it is part of an active faith process and when you ask for the right things. Is there proof? Only from the testimony of those who say it has worked. Remember that the only thing you can truly “prove” in this world, if you look at it scientifically, is that you exist. You cannot prove anything else. I believe as many others do that when you turn to God with humility and sincerity through prayer and through the Scripture you will be richly rewarded.

Mambo wrote:

  1. And this differs from the behavior of Old Testament heroes … how? :wink:

  2. Mother Teresa was, not to put too fine a point on it, an old lady. She had pretty much reached the end of her natural lifespan after a loooooooooong life. Diana, on the other hand, died in an automobile accident while she was still in her prime. She had at least a couple more decades of livin’ left to do. Lives cut short almost always generate more concern.

(Okay, that’s not always true. Perry Como died the same week as Douglas Adams, and although Como was much older he received most of the media attention. Likewise with Sammy Davis Jr. and Jim Henson.)

Diana died several hours after the accident. Because of her fame, the news of the accident was known world-wide very quickly. There was plenty of time for God to hear lots of prayers.

With respect to Mother Theresa, there may be a lesson to be learned, but it has nothing to do with the OP.
Bill Norton
Austin, TX

Actually, you can’t even prove that; not rigorously, anyhow, not without taking certain axioms as true without proof. However, I do not believe this means we must throw our hands up in the air and accept any old idea that comes along. Is it possible that tarot card readings are accurate and useful at predicting the future? Sure, but does that mean I should accept it as true because some people believe it very strongly and I cannot prove anything at all beyond a doubt? I think we can look at the weight of the evidence and decide that perhaps the weight of the evidence shows that tarot card reading are NOT effective. Unless prayer proponents demonstrate evidence and explanations more powerful than those given by tarot card readers, I am afraid I must rank them as approximately equal in effectiveness. If you claim prayers increase your connection with God and give you strength, etc., I can accept it to the same degree that I accept it when tarot card readers claim their working with the cards increases their spirituality. But when prayer-proponents start making empirical claims: “prayer cured my cancer!” or tarot proponents start saying “I predicted Kennedy’s death!”, well, then I want to see evidence.

But I did predict Kennedy’s death! (Even though Kennedy died in 1963 and I wasn’t born until 1965, I still predicted it. So there.)

I don’t know how well this is going to fit in this thread but I’ll tell you anyways.

Today I was on a bike ride with the local cycling shop. This was my first time to ride with them and I’d never been to this city before. I was following along nicely until
THE HILL FROM HELL! Needless to say it took me awhile to get up this monster and I took a spill on the way up too. While I was picking rocks out of my elbow and knees everyone else went on their merry way.

Now I’m all alone, on some backroads that I’ve never been on and all I can see is cornfields for miles (I’m in Ohio). Even if I had Onstar on my bike, I doubt it would do me any good because this place probably isn’t even on the map. Anyways, to cut to the chase, as I was riding along hopelessly lost, I started talking to God. I asked that he watch over me, keep me safe, keep the hills away (no luck on that one :frowning: ), and so on. Finally I asked him if I was going the right way. Next thing I know I see a lady coming down a gravel/dirt side road. I ask her if this street would take me back to downtown Lebonon. She said it would, but I’d have to go up a “really big hill”. DAMN IT! So I kept going, about 10 miles later I asked God if I could possibly get home a little faster. Yes, I know that may sound funny, but I was pretty desperate. Anyways, after about 3 more minutes or riding I see houses and a garage sale. I ask them, “how much for the Starwars lunch box and how far till I get to downtown?” They told me it was about 1/2 a mile till I was back to where I started. (Lunch box was like $5)

So that’s my story. I know it’s not going to change anyone’s beliefs or prove anything at all, but to me, it’s more proof that if you have faith, God will answer your prayers. He may not always do it right away and be obvious, but it never hurts to ask.

The problem with that, cykrider is that if your prayers were answered by God, then God is capricious and/or evil.

Why would he let infants die, despite the prayers of their families, but intervene to get you a Star Wars lunchbox?

Why would he allow disease (and don’t give me “free-will” as an answer: disease doesn’t involve free will) and ignore prayers for cures, but intervene to get you home faster?

I won’t accept the following answers:
“He works in mysterious ways”: Well, no. If His priorities are so screwed up that he’ll grant wishes for trivia, but ignore desperate crys for help, then it’s not mysterious. It’s evil or capricious.

“I had faith, so he heard me”: My Grandma died recently from heart failure. She was extremely devout, far more so than I am. God didn’t help her, but he was able to reconfigure the landscape so you were magically closer to home?

"He does answer all prayers, but sometimes the answer is “no” ": See my response to the first answer. If he can save people from serious misfortune, if he CAN intervene, but doesn’t, then he’s a thug. If He’s got a limited ablility to intervene, but chooses to squander it on trivia, then A) he’s not a God or B) we’re back to capricious and/or evil.

I understand a non-interventionist God. Makes sense. No problem. I understand an inteventionist God. I refuse to understand/accept a God who intevenes in a half-assed way.

Fenris

Fenris wrote:

Tut tut, Fenris! cykrider didn’t say (s)he prayed for a Star Wars lunch box, (s)he said (s)he prayed to get home a little faster.

Although I fail to see how a Star Wars lunch box reduced cykrider’s travel time.

Ok, fair enough. I retract the phrase. But still…

Right. In fact if you reread cykrider’s post it turns out that God didn’t do a thing. Cykrider’s prayers were just a meditative technique “God, help me through these tough times.” No one is denying that that kind of prayer can be helpful, at least to some.

Now, cykrider, do you really think the old lady walking down the gravel road just materialized out of thin air because of your prayer? Same for the folks at the garage sale. Do you think they would not have been there if you had not prayed?

Well, this maybe taking the cheap way out of it, but, I don’t know. I don’t have all the answers and when discussing my religious beliefs with others, all I can do is tell them what I believe. If it works for them great, if not, well hopefully their questions will be answered in time.

If you really want an answer, I guess the best I could say is that I think I was doing my thing, and the other people were doing theirs, and God just made it so we would intervene. Would the lady still, say have gotten her mail that day? Yes, but He made it so that I would be going by as she was outside.

Again, I’m not saying I have all the answers, but I’m willing to share my thoughts, and hopefully others will gain a better understanding and grow in their faith.

I wrote a paper for my comparative religion class that could possibly explain some of your questions. I’m not sure if theirs a limit on how long our posts can be so I might try uploading the whole paper to a geocities site and post parts of the paper on the boards.