I haven’t checked out this board in ages. Interesting thread though.
The concept of hell does not exist either in the original Hebrew, nor the original Greek texts.
A bunch of vague ideas on the afterlife were collected and grouped as “heaven” and “hell”
Most of it is from the Greek concept of Hades.
Although I believe in God, I’m almost sure hell doesn’t exist at all. It seems the annihilationist interpretation is the closest to the original texts.
No I haven’t done it yet. I want to do it “right” and also be very knowledgeable on the subject (how God often offers proof in the Bible - though he prefers faith)
Some things like that involve the death penalty in the OT. Christians would generally think they’re bad.
ok…
Mellontikos:
Could you check out this thread about Hell:
Well, if you wish to do as Christians generally do, you’re probably gonna have to get used to faith and faith alone.
Your wish for not just evidence but indeed direct, first-hand experience of the divine is already theologically suspect within much of mainstream Christianity.
I mean occult type stuff is immoral in the OT and it would be seen as immoral still (not all things that were prohibited in the OT are still immoral)
Not all Christians would agree, though.
See Martinez de Pasqually, a fervent Catholic and a theurgist.
Or Allan Kardec, the founder of Spiritism, who felt that his experiences in the séance room only confirmed the literal truth of his Catholic faith.
If you read Fanger’s Conjuring Spirits: Texts and Traditions of Late Medieval Ritual Magic, you’ll find that plenty of priests worked with ritual magic as well – certainly those guys considered themselves true and proper Christians, and vehemently defended themselves against all accusations of the “dude, theurgy’s like totally uncool” variety.
You’ll never make the cut with that type of selfish, me-first attitude.
I am fully aware of the fact that I believe in God not because of any outside evidence, but because it is in my nature to believe in God. Therefore, I never bother look for any physical proof for my belief, which is a good thing, as it would come into conflict with my acceptance of science and the physical world.
In a way, I’m sort of a “back pocket theist”. I don’t think about God all the time, and I don’t need him to explain the physical universe, but I know he’s there when I need him.
Hell you say?
Yeah, really.
God knows if you are acting out a desire to “love your neighbor” or if you are just looking to save your own ass. I understand Yeshua himself had some strong words to say about people who follow the letter of the law without investing in the spirit of the law.
Much like someone can be a thoroughly reprehensible person and still not break any civil laws. They don’t deserve a reward for doing the minimum needed to stay out of jail. Recognition is given to those who go above and beyond, who donate their time and goods to charity, who actively work to make things better instead of just sitting back and not getting involved.
(If it does turn out that “visible form of worship” really is 80% of our final grade, then I will cheerfully join Lucifer in his efforts to overthrow a capricious despot.)
Actually I do love my neighbor… and I don’t hate anyone.
Well it does say to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself…
How can I be saved then? I thought I could tell God that I’m a poor miserable sinner that deserves Hell and that I need Jesus’s death on the cross to save me…
I don’t know, but I am not a Fundamentalist. I just know that people who focus too much on the world to come are usually the most detestable to be around in this world. Live a good life, be kind to all, and let God sort it out.
Since I feel this borders on witnessing, I’m going to move it to Great Debates.
It’s hard to respond because of your Fundamentalist views. Only about 25% of Christians think that way, though they’re a very, very loud group. Many of the things you are stressing as being extremely important are considered almost irrelevant in other denominations.
The quoted text above demonstrates that you are trying to rely on a magic formula to get you right with God so you can save yourself from Hell. Assuming God is smart, and most churches agree that he probably is, he will see right through that charade. Words mean almost nothing, it all comes down to works and action.
Fundamentalist churches tell you that you can get right with God by denying yourself of the world around you. Don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t have premarital sex, don’t have homosexual sex, don’t gamble, don’t cuss, don’t …
More moderate churches tell you that the way to get right with God is by service. Charity, honesty, trustworthiness. They teach that you are to be a good steward and an example to the community around you.
At its root, Faith is a relationship with God. Strong relationships are built by the actions each member puts into it. Couples should spend quality time with one another, they should give each other occasional gifts, they should serve each others needs and equally share the burden of chores. There has to be mutual affection. Without these constant acts and effort to keep a relationship strong it will whither and die. The same is true with God. If all you have are words then there’s really nothing there to build on.
Faith and works are one and the same thing. You do works to build faith, and with faith you do more works.
God, and the community around you, will be far better served by you picking up a hammer and working on a habitat for humanity house; working at a food bank; joining any number of groups that teach important skills to anybody who needs them. The worst way to serve is by trying to tell other people the myriad ways they’re sinning and driving them away from the church forever.
JohnClay, consider that possibly the struggle you are going through now will lead you to a place where you will learn a little bit more of the puzzle.
Have you ever wondered what the Holy Spirit is? I don’t have any certain answers, but sometimes I think that it is the mixture of thinking and feeling that goes on in our heads from time to time. Rather than let it upset you, just listen for a while.
The above passage is classic JohnClay and a perfect example of why I so enjoy his threads and posts. 
Consider Jesus talking about the path to destruction is very wide while only a small number are saved.
What I was talking about was saying something about putting Jesus first in my life then actually doing it.
No they believe that only Jesus’s blood can make us right with God. The other things just involve trying to minimize your sinning. (Jesus told various people not the sin again)
Yes Jesus said that people would be saved according to how they treated people who had the lowest status in society - treatment of those people is how Jesus considers that you treat him.
[quote]
At its root, Faith is a relationship with God. Strong relationships are built by the actions each member puts into it. Couples should spend quality time with one another, they should give each other occasional gifts, they should serve each others needs and equally share the burden of chores. There has to be mutual affection. Without these constant acts and effort to keep a relationship strong it will whither and die. The same is true with God. If all you have are words then there’s really nothing there to build on.
Faith and works are one and the same thing. You do works to build faith, and with faith you do more works.
[quote]
My sisters believe that what matters is a relationship with Jesus. They consider the spirit of religion (an actual spirit) to cause countless “Christians” to go to hell.
I think the NT put a high priority on spreading the gospel. It mentioned things like telling the rich man to give all of his money to the poor in order to get into Heaven but my sisters believe in the prosperity gospel… (I think Benny Hinn also promotes that)
My sisters think you need the help of the Holy Spirit to believe…
Their pastor always calls it the “Holy Ghost”… I’ve wondered about ghosts and Christianity… I mean the disciples thought the risen Jesus might have been a ghost… I thought ghosts involve a spirit that is wandering the earth.
BTW based on the following link:
from the following thread:
I am fairly sure that the Bible doesn’t teach eternal torment for humans…
I wonder if I can convince any Christians that I know about this…
If it is true I’m not very worried about not being saved. I don’t want to worship God forever - maybe I’ll change my mind one day.