**Them’s my words, taken from another thread. And, FWIW, I am on record on this board (and probably in that thread) as conceding that Gore may very well have had more people leaving the Florida polls believing they voted for him than those believing they voted for Bush. So consider anything legitimate or illegitmate as your little heart desires.
In my book, what makes a politician “legitmate” is that he is elected according to the rules in place by the consent of the governed. That would be President Bush, a fact even Vice President Gore conceded, much to his credit. I think our country could have done far worse than electing Al Gore (or Bush). Either man is my president if he’s elected according to the rules. Speculation regarding scenarios where Gore could have won might be fun for you, but there weren’t none of 'em on the table back in 2000. All outcomes, all outcomes possible according to the rules in place, would have led to a Bush victory.
Anyway, my point then was in response to the notion that SCOTUS decided the election. SCOTUS ultimately was irrelevant. That’s all.
Actually, I was wondering if Al would address his own administration’s complete conviction that Iraq had WMD, and briefly explain why it was OK for him but naughty for Bush.
But, as I said, I didn’t read the whole thing. Campaign 2000 is long since over.
For the rest of us, at least.
But feel free to rehash the whole thing, both here and in the upcoming Presidental campaign. As a staunch Republican, I have no interest whatever in encouraging you to learn anything from your previous mistakes.
You lost back then, hopefully you will do the same thing in 2004. No matter what your retreads try to tell you.
No, no, no…* denying that you got a blowjob * is exactly the same as deliberately using discredited information to start an illegal war not to mention the amazing similarities to directing the treasury to lie to the American people. Apples and apples, my man, prez to prez.
The mental gymnastics necessary to support Bush and damn Clinton are truly astonishing.
I find it remarkably heartening that none of the Bush supporters in this thread have bothered to challenge a single assertion Al made in his speech. We’ve heard some “Yawn”, some “I’m not going to bother reading that” and some references to Al Gore’s credibility, but not a single taker in the challenge to dispute the assertions put forth.
Veddy interesting…
And **Stoid{/b], I do not agree with your assesment of Bush as a master campaigner. I honestly do not get how this man has been elected to any office. He is arrogant, evasive, lacks charisma, oozes insincerity, mangles even the simplest of party line mottos and comes across as a simpleton (which I acknowledge he is not). Even the most ardent Clinton hater will admit that Clinton has something. He had an ability to come across as sincere, even when he wasn’t, oozed charisma, and could improvise better than Bush will ever be able to recite a memorized speech. It is one of the reasons they hated Clinton so much–he had IT.
Bush, simply, does not. I do not understand his appeal.
Oh, I see. So you have evidence that the Clinton/Gore admin. deliberately used discredited information in that regard, then lied to cover up the fact that they did so? And even if they did, what illegal war did they start? IIRC, Clinton was careful to have the sanction of the UN.
It’s not about the campaign, it’s about criticism of the current administration.
Um…because they didn’t use that “conviction” as a rationale to invade another sovereign country, in direct and flagrant violation of international law and the Constitution of the United States? Not that Bush cares about the Constitution when there’s oil involved…
** Calliope, **I heartily agree. I only call Bush a masterful campaigner because I assume he has to be in order to be where he is. I certainly don’t personally see anything appealing in him, I view him precisely as you do, but he does have some weird ability to get people on his side. I’m astounded by this, but his position forces me to accept the truth of it.
However, you are right… Clinton had IT, in spades. I’ve heard people from all sides admit that a politician of his talent comes along maybe once in a generation. And I’m sure that had a great deal to do with why he was so hated by the right.
Last night I was surfing channels, and got to watch Al deliver the speech (rerun on C-Span). I’ll just say . . . his delivery did not match the content. Maybe he should have kept the beard?
Ah! I get it now. An intelligent man, such as yourself of course, will simply refuse to read facts that might put a damper on his ideology, throw a few baseless insults around and be done with it. Clever indeed – although, to be fair, I believe ostridges should get at least equal amount of credit for that particular maneuver.
Funny thing is I’d never thought of ostridges as being either particularly intelligent or capable of debating. Doesn’t look like I’ll be changing my mind anytime soon…
OK, kiddies, I’ve read this whole thread and so far what I am getting is one bunch saying look what the former Vice-president said, tell us if this is a fair and accurate assessment of the accomplishments and short fallings of the Bush Administration, and another bunch of people saying, in effect, ”Ha, Al Gore, what a looser.” Now that is hardly a debate, great or petty. It is juvenile behavior more appropriate to the election for Valentine Queen. Damn it! Al Gore made some pretty clear points which if accurate and fair are pretty damning. Either the Bush supporters are going to honestly respond to Gore’s talk or they are going to retreat into adolescent name calling.
It is worth pointing out that Al Gore is in a unique position. Of all the leading figures in the Democratic Party he alone is in a position to tell the truth because he alone doesn’t have to worry about the consequences of telling the truth on his political future. He is in an ideal position to be the guy who says that the Emperor is naked. Once he does that maybe the rest of the crew will quit telling us all how good His Majesty’s new suit looks.
There is an Italian proverb that says that the man who tells the truth better have one foot in the stirrup. Prepare to mount, boys.
I agree with everything you stated regarding Al except for Bush and Iraq.
As a conservative Democrat who voted for Bush, I think Al is so full of shit he should have waders by his bed to put on every morning before his feet hit the floor.
Sour grapes are so unattractive, especially when done in the unprofessional and immature way Al was grandstanding yesterday. I think the Democrats have a slim margin at best to win in 2004 and will loose that quick with speeches like the one Al gave….
The best person on the radar is JL but I think that his religion might be a factor in his national appeal. I would seriously consider voting for him if he were the nominee.
The far left contingency within the Democratic Party would have a fit if Joe got the nomination. They want to run the party right into socialist hell, by nominating Howard “McGovern” Dean on the ticket.
If that should happen and I don’t think it will but if it does, the party will loose a massive number of devoted members including myself (I wont be just voting Republican to show my distaste, I will be registering too).
But hey, the far left can all run around trying to accomplish their politically correct agenda of, “redistribution of all the wealth in the country” (basic communism) but scream about the bloody Patriot Act and the constitution being decimated!
One of the favorite issues of the left is “lets love everyone and let them have all of the privileges of citizenship and none of the responsibility that comes with it, because we might hurt someone’s feelings”.
And of course if the left can just play ball and ass kiss the very governments who would screw us right up the backside without a choice of KY or Vaseline while cashing our foreign aid checks.
I was always taught to have consideration and the utmost respect towards friends who would bail me out at a moment’s notice, much less a friend that had bailed me out and done so more than once!
But hey there is not accounting for loyalty, taste or manners now is there…
The UN and all the glory that it stands for needs to pack their bags because we need that office space desperately since we lost 10% of what NYC had before 9/11…
I can assure you, we could at least make a profit from that property as oppose to letting a bunch of blood suckers sit around wanking off while they have their foot shoved up our ass….
Everyone seem so concerned over the Patriot Act….LMFAO
What a pathetic soapbox to get up on with all of the other serious issues at hand. There are so many serious issues in the q of the emergency room, that is our government it is not even funny.
The problem is that if we get off into the subject matter that really does matter the Democrats have no real solutions or substance to their agenda except to criticize what is presently being done now.
Taking on the Patriot Act is nothing more than arguing the finer points of Federal Law. They are taking the easy road to having an issue to hang onto and clouding the fact that there is no real substance to the rest of their agenda because there is not one….
I want all of these people who seem to think their constitution and civil rights have been shit all over by activating this policy to tell me something.
How exactly have they been personally affected and what have they witnessed “personally” of others that have been affected by the injustice they claim it is?
And I am not talking about some half assed article by the NY Times that came out 3 months ago and all of the sources don’t exist…
Have you or do you know anyone that has been hauled away by the feds for interrogation, while being denied legal council?
Have you or anyone you know been thrown in jail and not told why or not been given due process?
Have you or anyone you know been investigated and interrogated for something that no one seems to know anything about?
Do any of you know anyone who has just been hauled away by a government agency to never be heard from again? (I am assuming since you are posting on this board you are not being held against your will)
If your not guilty of crimes against the security of this country, or have a knowing connection to those that do, then you should not be worrying your pretty little heads over the fine print of the Patriot Act.
Much less should you be worried about the SOB’s that are affected because they were trying to kill us all, other than the fact that they are not in circulation to hurt anyone….
Are we afraid some terrorist who has managed to get citizenship or better yet is an illegal, wont be given a fucking lawyer when he is arrested with a truck full of fertilizer driving in front of a town hall?
I think Timothy McVey is proof that won’t happen as well as that idiot being held in Chicago….
What you should be bitching about is the fact the INS and the special agencies in this country were not doing their job for a very long time. We should be screaming that money is not spent on cross-referencing every government computer we have to track immigration and criminal suspects for starters.
Sorry but Clinton shoulders a great deal of that blame since he had 8 years prior to 9/11 to address what that administration knew was an issue.
Of course Clinton was too busy watching and playing golf while getting his little cumquat to blow him, all the while he was blowing his own herald horn about how he was balancing the budget and we were just having that stock market- economic boom of the millennium.
The problem with that one is that no one bothered to take into account the hangover that was going to come with the natural cycle that has been our economic market for the last 150 years (yet Enron is the Bush administrations problem, mmmm guess they just started cooking all those books when the Republicans got in office). When you add terrorism on top of that, well you have a new kind of hangover we have never experienced before.….
The Clinton and Gore administration reducing our military by half, “gutting” much of our foreign policy to balance that budget they love to talk about so much.
I will tell you what, sanctimonious hypocrite comes to mind…
The Democrats have just forgotten about the 73 House and Senate witnesses who have pled the 5th Amendment and 17 witnesses who have fled the country
to avoid testifying about illegal Democratic campaign fund raising that Al Gore was helping to orchestrate…
And of course if that were not enough we just don’t have time to get off into the pardons and Whitewater convictions, pilfering of WH silverware, vandalizing the west wing to the point that it took the staff 4 days to get it straight and making Air Force one about 5000 pounds lighter on your last trip when you took everything that was not bolted to the floor. Clinton and that pack of redneck hillbillies were stealing from the taxpayers that paid for that plane…
Now I am not saying the Republicans were perfect and spending 80m of the tax payers dollars to tell me when Billy Boy was coming, laying, staying and praying was just as pathetic but if the commander and chief and that disgraceful excuse of a wife of his had a grain of common sense there would have never been Ken Star or an investigation that would have cost a dime…
His legacy at the moment is a blowjob, bad taste in women and being disbarred for starters… What a leader and fine example for the party….
I have an issue with Bush on NAFTA but from an overall stance he is doing a damn good job and not taking any shit off anyone. I like that, I don’t care whose feelings are hurt because he will not ass kiss…
What everyone should be looking at is the fact that all of the new measures put in place since 9/11 have probably prevented a great deal of grief from being perpetrated within the boarders of this nation and on its citizens.
I wish every person had the seat I had on 9/11 (looking out my office window on the west side of WTC2 on the 60th floor) instead of sitting on your couch in front of the TV…
You might be singing a different tune, you might realize that without this nation being secure you have no economy worth a damn and it just trickles down from there as it clearly did in the months after 9/11…
The Democrats are screaming about this Iraq issue, when Sadam was a ruthless dictator that is probably in the top 10 “all time great list of criminals against humanity”.
Nope we want to bitch about a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.
If Bush had not overridden the circle jerk that was the UN, you would have had the risk of Sadam killing thousands if not millions.
What do you think the outcry would have been had he pulled off a major kill?
Well what was Bush doing to protect us, they had all this info that said he probably had WMD and did nothing. What more of a wake up call do you need other than 9/11. You would have thought after the old man did not finish him off the son would have righted the mistake…bla bla bla
Sorry that was a bet you could not hedge.
Preventive measures had to be taken not only for our well being but the well being of those within Iraq that were suffering under horrible oppression and for the safety of our allies (even the ungrateful ones counting their oil and military contract money, France, Russia, Germany).
These people who want to cuddle criminals and see if we can reform them as oppose to protecting the innocent the best way we can, should be horse whipped. I deplore and have no use for people who think that it is better to leave people to live in a horrible state as oppose to risking collateral damage to save as many as you can and try to bring change to a country. And no we all knew going in that this was not going to be a walk through the park, especially post full combat mode….
Thank god we have someone that has the balls to make a life saving judgment call and not worry about some of the more radical critics….
The Democrats want to play partisan politics and split hairs because information from a sitting administration is not exactly what they think the painting should look like…
Yea sit over there in that glass house and just keep throwing those stones because you don’t have a pane left and are sitting in nothing but a frame… Must pretty wet when it rains….
I am sick of the embarrassment the Democrats and liberals in this country are perpetually putting forth. I tell you what it looks like from the outside…
Instead of standing behind what was a just military action and instead of taking a look at how we can better accomplish what needs to be done, the democrats want to make everyone look like horses asses including themselves while giving some of our most ludicrous, ungrateful, and criminal critics (France, Germany & Russia) the party of their life.
Everyone who hates this country and what she stands for, everyone who would like noting better than to see the greatest nation in recorded history fall to her knees, is laughing their collective asses because they have managed to accomplish exactly what they want…. A house divided.
A house divided cannot stand, is a lesson that has been played over and over in history, can we all say “War Between the States” ….
Those in my family who have held national office and where “die in the wool Democrats” are running around the cemetery at the disgrace the party has come to.
I long for the days when partisan politics was never played out on such a public stage or at the expense of the nation everyone is here to serve.
But if that is not a good enough rant for you Stoid then lets look at the statistics from Al’s previous bid for the white house…
Sorry I had this saved to a document for some time but I cannot find my link….
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University of Law, St. Paul, MN
passed on that gem & provides the following 2000 election facts for
consideration.
Population of counties won by Gore 127 million won by Bush 143
Million Sq. miles of country won by Gore 580,000 won by Bush 2,427,000
States won by Gore 19 by Bush 29
Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore 13.2 by Bush 2.1 (not a typo)
Professor Olson adds,
“And may I add that the map of the
territory Bush won was (mostly) the land owned by the people of this great country. Not the citizens living in cities owned by the government and living off the government.”
The people of this country that carry the load will not stand for this liberal socialist slid the party is making. If moderation and common sense does not prevail you will be looking at the demise of the Democratic Party and I will be the first one off the sinking titanic that it is becoming.
Despite the extended discussion of the heresies of the Democratic Party, descent into the horrors of socialism, support of international action through the UN, lack of affordable office space in NYC, questionable fund raising, population and area of counties where Bush carried a plurality of votes (including Dade County, Florida, I assume), you have yet to address the merits of Mr. Gore’s comments, Tilly. Name calling and off topic raging does not a debate make.
You posted: “So where are all the facts you guys are promising us?” and I commented exactly on that. If ‘Treis’ promised you something, ask ‘Treis’ specifically.
SIOUX FALLS, South Dakota (AP) --A man who made a remark about a “burning Bush” during the president’s March 2001 trip to Sioux Falls was sentenced Friday to 37 months in prison.
Richard Humphreys of Portland, Oregon was convicted in September of threatening to kill or harm the president and said he plans to appeal. He has said the comment was a prophecy protected under his right to free speech.
I just have to ask why? Why even bother to call yourself a Democrat? Clearly given your rant you are so far from any aspect of support for the Democratic part, why continue the charade? You did know that you were allowed to switch, right?