Prefer Trump or Pence as president?

[xenophon41]

@Colibri

I was on the fence when this was originally posted. I thought that Trump would be more damaging to the Republican brand than Pence would, and help Democrats in the long run.

But the total shit show of massive incompetence, lying, self-absorption, venality, and derangement that’s been on display since the inauguration has convinced me that virtually anyone would be better. Trump is doing damage not just to Republicans, but to the American brand. He’s not going to improve. Having this idiocy go on for another four years would be unthinkable.

This.

And on the brand-damaging front, I’m thinking the strategy from McConnell, Ryan et al is probably to ditch or distance themselves from Trump after they’ve gotten as much of their policy preferences passed as they can and before the inevitably horrible consequences hit, and then use POTUS as America’s whipping boy for those unpopular results. The sooner Trump goes, the harder that’ll be to pull off.

(On the other hand, the longer they work with Trump the harder it’ll be to unhitch their political identities from his…)

[MemoryLeak]

In the end, all that matters to me is that Hillary lost. And the fact that she lost to The Donald makes it all that more delicious.

[Sage_Rat]

@MemoryLeak

In the end, all that matters to me is that Hillary lost. And the fact that she lost to The Donald makes it all that more delicious.

The only reason I’m aware of to really not want the Clintons back in the Whitehouse is because they are corrupt.

That doesn’t seem like a winning argument in support of Trump over Hilary. At least she was a high class sort of corrupt, and smart enough not to get caught. Trump is a giant target with several hundred missiles locked and approaching.

Every positive item of support for Trump that I saw during the election was also and better suited by Gary Johnson. Small government, insular, former CEO, fiscally prudent, etc. And, importantly, not corrupt, not likely to toss Eastern Europe to Putin, and not likely to trash the global economy.

If you’d bothered to actually do the research, you could have gotten everything you wanted. Instead, well the daily news is more exciting, but you’ve basically elected everything you didn’t want in a leader.

[race_to_the_bottom]

There is too much attention to Trump and not enough to the extremely reactionary Republican Congress. This is where everything will be cast in stone. In some ways, Trump is a mixed bag, but Pence is hard core Christian right, and I can’t see how The Donald is sincerely committed to the Medieval social views of the theocrats. The fact that Pence is very committed to his agenda is NOT a good thing.

[MemoryLeak]

@Sage_Rat

The only reason I’m aware of to really not want the Clintons back in the Whitehouse is because they are corrupt.

That doesn’t seem like a winning argument in support of Trump over Hilary. At least she was a high class sort of corrupt, and smart enough not to get caught. Trump is a giant target with several hundred missiles locked and approaching.

Every positive item of support for Trump that I saw during the election was also and better suited by Gary Johnson. Small government, insular, former CEO, fiscally prudent, etc. And, importantly, not corrupt, not likely to toss Eastern Europe to Putin, and not likely to trash the global economy.

How about I just don’t like her?

@Sage_Rat

If you’d bothered to actually do the research, you could have gotten everything you wanted. Instead, well the daily news is more exciting, but you’ve basically elected everything you didn’t want in a leader.

This is the best part though. If I’d simply done my homework I would have arrived at the same answer as you. No other answer is possible. Every other answer is wrong.

[Sage_Rat]

@MemoryLeak

How about I just don’t like her?

This is the best part though. If I’d simply done my homework I would have arrived at the same answer as you. No other answer is possible. Every other answer is wrong.

There are pros and cons to every decision. One could think that Trump genuinely had a better platform, for example.

At the end of the day, how much we like or don’t like someone is irrelevant to the question. Steve Jobs was, by all accounts, a complete asshole. If you had stock in Apple, though, would you vote to bring him back from the dead to take the company over again, or Robin Williams? If you actually cared about making money off your stocks, Jobs is clearly the one more likely to not run the company into the ground.

The person managing the country doesn’t need to be likable. It’s a position that requires the ability to do research, the ability to keep calm, sufficient dignity to not sell half of Europe to a murderous kleptomaniac, etc. The election isn’t a popularity contest for Homecoming Queen and King. It’s a job with real world ramifications. There are 43 million Ukrainians. Why do they deserve to have their country taken over by a backwards dictatorship?

I mean, imagine going over to Europe and meeting each person in the Ukraine and having to explain to them why you voted for Trump, instead of Hillary or Johnson. “I had a personal distaste for her, politics and the welfare of my own nation, your nation, and the rest of the world be damned!” Each of the 43 million would be well in their rights to slap you if that’s really the start and end of your political consideration heading into the vote. “I don’t like her, so your country, your safety, your children can all rot.”

And let’s not forget, of things that Hillary has done which are not likable;

1. She’s a democrat
2. She’s probably corrupt
3. She comes across as snooty

Well great, but how does the counter option come in higher than that?

1. He’s definitely going to be corrupt, once in office
2. He assaults women
3. He won’t even pay a group of little kid musicians to perform at his events after promising to do so
4. The only people he seems to like are murderous dictators

If the “R” next to the name on the voting pamphlet can make that into a more likable person than Hillary Clinton, then…Jesus, I don’t know. All I can say, I guess, is that cognitive dissonance is almost certainly the most scary failing of humanity, and the fact that you’ll have exact zero appreciation for any of this is truly a thing of horror that will never be matched by any film. Like, sure, Hillary Clinton is not likable. But there’s just no comparing “snooty” or any other failing in her personality to “basically a rapist who should be serving time in jail”. You would really rather hang out with a rapist than a Democrat?

[MemoryLeak]

@Sage_Rat

There are pros and cons to every decision. One could think that Trump genuinely had a better platform, for example.

At the end of the day, how much we like or don’t like someone is irrelevant to the question. Steve Jobs was, by all accounts, a complete asshole. If you had stock in Apple, though, would you vote to bring him back from the dead to take the company over again, or Robin Williams? If you actually cared about making money off your stocks, Jobs is clearly the one more likely to not run the company into the ground.

The person managing the country doesn’t need to be likable. It’s a position that requires the ability to do research, the ability to keep calm, sufficient dignity to not sell half of Europe to a murderous kleptomaniac, etc. The election isn’t a popularity contest for Homecoming Queen and King. It’s a job with real world ramifications. There are 43 million Ukrainians. Why do they deserve to have their country taken over by a backwards dictatorship?

I mean, imagine going over to Europe and meeting each person in the Ukraine and having to explain to them why you voted for Trump, instead of Hillary or Johnson. “I had a personal distaste for her, politics and the welfare of my own nation, your nation, and the rest of the world be damned!” Each of the 43 million would be well in their rights to slap you if that’s really the start and end of your political consideration heading into the vote. “I don’t like her, so your country, your safety, your children can all rot.”

And let’s not forget, of things that Hillary has done which are not likable;

1. She’s a democrat
2. She’s probably corrupt
3. She comes across as snooty

Well great, but how does the counter option come in higher than that?

1. He’s definitely going to be corrupt, once in office
2. He assaults women
3. He won’t even pay a group of little kid musicians to perform at his events after promising to do so
4. The only people he seems to like are murderous dictators

If the “R” next to the name on the voting pamphlet can make that into a more likable person than Hillary Clinton, then…Jesus, I don’t know. All I can say, I guess, is that cognitive dissonance is almost certainly the most scary failing of humanity, and the fact that you’ll have exact zero appreciation for any of this is truly a thing of horror that will never be matched by any film. Like, sure, Hillary Clinton is not likable. But there’s just no comparing “snooty” or any other failing in her personality to “basically a rapist who should be serving time in jail”. You would really rather hang out with a rapist than a Democrat?

Who’s this we you keep talking about?

And how did Bill Clinton get into this?

[Procrustus]

@cuauhtemoc

Pence, by a mile. We’ve had awful presidents before. We’ve never had this before.

This is my view. Substitute Cruz, however, and I’d have to think about it.

[RickJay]

@Procrustus

This is my view. Substitute Cruz, however, and I’d have to think about it.

Cruz would be ten times the President that Trump is. Not a close call.

Is Cruz a horrible person? Yes, he is. But he’d* try *to be a good President and he’s not up to his eyeballs in debt to Vladimir Putin.

[Sage_Rat]

@MemoryLeak

Who’s this we you keep talking about?

And how did Bill Clinton get into this?

Since I’m not writing in support of Clinton (either one) nor in support of electing people based on how likable they are, that’s not a meaningful comeback even if we accept that there’s no difference between seduction and assault. Between two rapists, why hire the unqualified one who supports a dictator? Why hire either of them, when there’s another qualified candidate in the race?

[running_coach]

@RickJay

Cruz would be ten times the President that Trump is. Not a close call.

Is Cruz a horrible person? Yes, he is. *But he’d try *to be a good President **and he’s not up to his eyeballs in debt to Vladimir Putin.

Only to certain people.
If nothing else, Obama at least tried to do what he thought best for everyone.
No 47%, no religious tests.

[MemoryLeak]

@Sage_Rat

Since I’m not writing in support of Clinton (either one) nor in support of electing people based on how likable they are, that’s not a meaningful comeback even if we accept that there’s no difference between seduction and assault. Between two rapists, why hire the unqualified one who supports a dictator? Why hire either of them, when there’s another qualified candidate in the race?

I’m impressed by the absolute confidence with which you assert (or perhaps proclaim) the criteria by which ‘we’ will assess the qualifications of the candidates and then select the candidate to support.

[madmonk28]

Trump is mentally unstable and being manipulated by a white supremacist who has stated that he wants to completely upend our political institutions. Pence would be an improvement, although still a disaster.

[iiandyiiii]

I thought about this for a while, and have decided that I’d prefer Pence. Not just for policy reasons (I think Pence’s policies would be terrible and greatly damaging to the country, but at least they’d be relatively predictable and come without the insane rhetoric that inflames racial, religious, ethnic, etc., conflicts), but for political reasons – if Trump goes down in the first term, it won’t be because Democrats brought him down – the Republican party would have to be part of bringing him down, either by supporting an impeachment, or starting to publicly demand that he resign. And Trump is incapable of going down quietly with any grace – he would go down hard, and take as many “traitors” with him as he could.

Trump wouldn’t just disappear – he’d make it his mission to bring down anyone he felt didn’t stand by him to the end. And I think there’s enough Trump voters who aren’t particularly tied to the GOP that the Democrats would benefit enormously.

[Bridget_Burke]

@Quartz

It’s a bit early. Let Trump get settled in and used to the restrictions of the position and ask again.

So, you’re still waiting for that “pivot”? Don’t hold your breath…

[RickJay]

@running_coach

Only to certain people.
If nothing else, Obama at least tried to do what he thought best for everyone.
No 47%, no religious tests.

I didn’t say Ted Cruz would be a better President than Barack Obama. I said he’d try to be.

I’m sorry but I find the OP’s poll question ludicrous. It’s like asking “what’s worse, shoplifting or murder?” and 22% of people voting shoplifting because they just can’t get over the idea of a guy lifting a bad of M&Ms from a 7/11. Actually, a more accurate analogy would be that Cruz is the shoplifter and Trump is a murderer AND a shoplifter.

You know who Cruz would sort of be like? Or Pence? George W. Bush. Actually, he would be worse than Bush - Bush did not have the streak of cruelty Pence does, and his Christianity was more in the true spirit of Christ than Pence’s small-minded bigotry. Bush was incompetent, not mean. I cannot even begin to imagine Cruz expending the time and energy on AIDS relief that Bush has. But it’d be kind of like that - misguided in many ways but he’d do his level best to be a good President. Ted at least remembers his civics lessons, Schoolhouse Rock stuff like how a bill becomes a law and what a “constitution” is. I actually think he might possibly have a Cabinet member who wasn’t white who he’d listen to.

You know what president Donald Trump is like? It’s a trick question, there is no comparison. Trump doesn’t care about his country. I don’t know how much more this has to be said; it is not that Trump disagrees with you on politics, it’s that Trump literally disagrees with you as to whether the United States of America is a thing to care about or try to improve. He doesn’t give a shit; he does not have a shred of patriotism in him. His goal is to enrich himself, and that’s the end of it, and if he has to betray his country or let it go to rot to get richer, he’ll do that. Trump would absolutely, without doubt, I-am-employing-no-hyperbole-whatsoever, let ten million Americans die in a nuclear terrorist attack if he felt it would make him richer and more popular. Pence would not.

[Johnny_Ace]

@MemoryLeak

I’m impressed by the absolute confidence with which you assert (or perhaps proclaim) the criteria by which ‘we’ will assess the qualifications of the candidates and then select the candidate to support.

Yes, it’s clear that some people are more impressed with cults of personality than actual ability to govern and not run the country into the ground.

[MemoryLeak]

@Johnny_Ace

Yes, it’s clear that some people are more impressed with cults of personality than actual ability to govern and not run the country into the ground.

I know! I always wondered why anyone thought Hillary would make a good president. And you crystallized it for me in a 26 word post!

[Miller]

@MemoryLeak

I know! I always wondered why anyone thought Hillary would make a good president. And you crystallized it for me in a 26 word post!

You’re trying to argue that Hilary Clinton had a personality?

[madmonk28]

If we are ever in a situation where it is President Pence, it means that Trump has dropped dead, been impeached or pulled a Palin and decided being a president is hard and has quit.

A President Pence would most likely be a weakened president. He would be tenuously holding office while the country waited for 2020 to clean house. A weakened President Pence is desirable to a crazy President Trump.