"Pregnant Women are Smug" is bad and it should feel bad

[Frylock]

CrazyCatLady, thanks for the constructive post.

@CrazyCatLady

I think I see the fundamental disconnect between you and the song now. The song focuses on a particular piece of pregnancy privilege you dismiss with “and so on.” Namely, the song is about the fact that you can’t call a pregnant woman on obnoxious behavior like answering questions with hackneyed non sequitors, or carrying on like she’s suddenly become the Earth Goddess and your petty human concerns have no relevance to her. Not out loud, at least, unless you want people to call you an asshole. Case in point, this thread.

I want to reassure you: I didn’t mean to dismiss anything by using the phrase “and so on,” rather, I meant to include everything that could plausibly be added to the list–for example, what you’ve said here.

This is not a subtle interpretation reached through careful reading and deep introspection, either–it’s right there in the chorus. “Everybody knows it, nobody says it because they’re pregnant.”

Agreed.

So far I feel like we’re converging. I think you agree with what I said in my last post about how the song can seem funny to people who see pregnant women as a kind of “privileged class.”

But I still disagree with with what you say next. It’s the following phrase that highlights my point of disagreement with you:

Pretty much every pregnant woman [snip]

So there’s that qualifier “pretty much,” I know, but still, the force of your observation is clearly supposed to be taken as nearly universal. That is what I think needs to be treated with more caution, and it’s exactly this tendency to universalize a negative stereotype that I’m calling the song out on.

I’ve been told nobody really means it that seriously or universally, and maybe for many people that’s true, but you’re demonstrating (and you’re not the first in this thread) that for many others, it is something they take seriously and think is (“pretty much”) universally true.

That’s exactly where I disagree. I don’t think that “pretty much every pregnant woman has at least one moment where she’s an obnoxious twit about the whole thing.” I think you’re wrong to assume that “pretty much every pregnant woman” has a notion that something specially magically expressive of her personal creative powers is happening, such that she should have some kind of special deference afforded to her.

Moreover I think that people are misinterpreting behaviors (or even worse, simply assuming things about the person without anything to interpret!) in light of these assumptions. It’s the catch 22 I described in the OP–they’re scrutinized over every detail of their behavior, but when they try to do things the right way, then if they communicate about it they’re called smug, and if they avoid trying to communicate about it, they’re called smug!

You mentioned the “I’m so crafty I make people” shirts. You’ve seen people wearing them (I assume) and concluded that the people wearing them have, at least to some small degree, the negative characteristics you’ve ascribed to “pretty much every pregnant woman.” I won’t even take issue with that conclusion (just briefly noting in passing that for all I know a person wearing that shirt thinks its funny precisely because they know how little they actually have to do with the process). I will just ask instead–do you know how many pregnant women took a look at that shirt and rolled their eyes and smirked at it precisely for the very same reasons you would?

Based on my experience, I’d say this happens plenty. And if I’m right about that, this undermines the idea that “pretty much every pregnant woman” shares the kind of sentiment you’ve ascribed to them. But do you have good reasons to think I’m wrong to say this happens plenty?

[AnaMen]

I find the song pretty offensive because it says “pregnant women” without narrowing it down to the very real group that does behave this way. Many women go to great lengths to AVOID pregnancy, get abortions, put their babies up for adoption, etc. They surely are not “smug” about the fact that they were raped or their birth control failed.

Later in the song, there is this verse:
“You think that you’re glowing
But you’ve been ho’ing
And now you’re pregnant”
Claiming that women having sex are “ho’ing” is misanthropic and shitty. I know this is meant as a joke, but it is a sexist stereotype and a form of slut-shaming.

I did find the depictions of the smug pregnant woman spot-on and funny, and I do think those answers are smug and meant to simultaneously brag and put down the questioner, I’d just prefer that the song not accuse ALL pregnant women of this behavior.

[jimbuff314]

Ya know, the other day I was reading the thread from back in 2000 in which Gaudere made the typo while pointing out someone’s incorrect usage of “infer” vs “imply” that eventually led to the formulating of what we know as Gaudere’s Law. It was in GD, something about how Libertarians oftentimes construct fantasy situations to explore (for example) how the underprivileged would be handled in and would like a Libertarian society. The other side was like “hey, can we focus on real world issues vis-à-vis Libertarianism, fer Chrissakes?” Or something.

Which brings me to my point. I tried my best to read and follow the reasoning and convoluted “word structurements” but failed. Certain parts of this thread are starting to remind me of that thread.

ETA : My post happened to be just after AnaMen’s. I do not want any part of it to be construed to indicate that I in any form or capacity support “slut-shaming”. That is something I do not tolerate. Thank you.

[SecretaryofEvil]

@Superdude

To me, the most maddening thing about this is that, with all the pop culture abortions presented upon the world (Nic Cage, Michael Bay movies, the Ice Capades), this is what prompts Frylock[sup]*[/sup]'s moral outrage. This is where he draws a line in the sand and screams “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not gonna take it any more!”

[sup]*I have nothing personal against Frylock. I admire his passion, no matter how misguided I think it may be. And I love Aqua Teen Hunger Force, which I assume is where he got his name.[/sup]

@Frylock

I don’t know anybody who both:

A. Would care to defend any of those three performers/works, and
B. Would typically enjoy a spirited contentious discussion about them.

Moreover I’m not familiar with anything morally significant or interesting involving any of the three, though that could easily be due to lack of familiarity with them.

I’ve got this. The Rock, directed by Michael Bay and starring Nicolas Cage, is a perfectly cromulent popcorn action flick.

[Frylock]

@SecretaryofEvil

I’ve got this. The Rock, directed by Michael Bay and starring Nicolas Cage, is a perfectly cromulent popcorn action flick.

Okay, and it will be taking place on ice. Now I just need a relevant moral issue. [/who’s line]

[Frylock]

@Frylock

Okay, and it will be taking place on ice. Now I just need a relevant moral issue. [/who’s line]

(Should have been “whose line” of course… )

[BigT]

@LC_Strawhouse

Come on OP, why not just admit that you get a kick out of women’s disputes with each other, and that song provided a chance to feed into that while pretending to be a concerned observer. (You can get the same thrill by watching a Real Housewives show, by the way.)

Because it has no relevance to the topic of the thread.

Frylock is trying to have an intellectual conversation about the implications of the song. He recognizes that it is comedic, but argues that the comedy underlies dark assumptions. Some people want to argue whether he is correct.

Other people want to have a conversation about how annoyingly obsessive and humorless Frylock is. I would even grant that this is sometimes true, but it has no bearing on the topic of this thread. I think a lot of feminists are self-important bitches but that has no relevance to whether their arguments are legitimate or not.

I just wish Frylock would wise up and just tell people who clearly have a problem with him to open a Pit thread and then refuse to engage any further. He enables these hijacks by responding to them.

[BigT]

@choie

On behalf of all women who were, might be, could have been, or possibly will be pregnant one day, I for one would like to thank Frylock for being a verray, parfit, gentil knyght and rising to the defense of a group that so desperately needs a staunch advocate.

Such cruel songs, in the name of so-called ‘humor,’ surely rise to a level of victimization–possibly even, as you justly and certainly not melodramatically say, of violation. We, and by ‘we’ I mean those who are Y-chromosome-challenged and thus helpless to defend ourselves from attacks by society, do indeed appreciate the fact that at least one man, one strong, true, capital-F Feminist man, is brave enough to rage against the tide of hatred against the under-protected and under-represented class of pregnant women.

All that is required for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. Evil, in this case, slithers like the serpent into Eden into our public consciousness as it so often does: via the form of a fluffy, snarky song. And it’s by two women, too–the vilest betrayal of all!

Thank you again, Frylock, for standing up and bravely stating that all pregnant women are not smug. After all, despite centuries and millennia of pregnant women being idealized as Madonnas… despite the majority of cultures that raise up pregnancy as the ultimate feminine goal, it’s definitely true that pregnant women are a much-abused class.

God only knows what might have happened if people had listened to a humorous song and not considered how much it victimized vulnerable fertile females. And shame, shame on those who think this is ‘just’ a witty ditty. In such a society that tolerates pregnant women being called “smug” in a song by a relatively obscure comedy duo, the obvious next step would likely have been making ovulating a felony; from there, is it not clear that mandatory abortions would follow? Indeed, it is not ridiculous to believe that this very song could have been the end of the human race!

So kudos to you, sir, and kudos again. We who are about to (or may, or possibly could have chosen to) procreate salute you.

Are you pregnant?

[choie]

@BigT

Are you pregnant?

I fit into one of the categories I mentioned. That is both all you need to know and sure as fuck all I plan on telling you.

[rowrrbazzle]

@Bryan_Ekers

I’d just like to say that Garfunkel and Oates are a lot like Sarah Silverman, only with music.

And humor.

QFT.

@Frylock

No surprise I’m guessing, but Silverman seems alot funnier to me. G&O are just doing the “saying what everyone is thinking” kind of thing, which is at most chuckleworthy in the best of times…

In my case, that’s what sets us apart!

[Yookeroo]

I have to imagine that Frylock gets punched in the face a lot. Either that or the people he hangs out with (his “cohort”) must have incredible self control. Just his use of “cohort” would have to have some people fighting violent impulses.

[Larry_Borgia]

@BigT

Are you pregnant?

Are you?

[Bryan_Ekers]

Touch his belly!

[Frylock]

@BigT

Because it has no relevance to the topic of the thread.

Frylock is trying to have an intellectual conversation about the implications of the song. He recognizes that it is comedic, but argues that the comedy underlies dark assumptions. Some people want to argue whether he is correct.

Other people want to have a conversation about how annoyingly obsessive and humorless Frylock is. I would even grant that this is sometimes true, but it has no bearing on the topic of this thread. I think a lot of feminists are self-important bitches but that has no relevance to whether their arguments are legitimate or not.

I just wish Frylock would wise up and just tell people who clearly have a problem with him to open a Pit thread and then refuse to engage any further. He enables these hijacks by responding to them.

You can guess which bit of this I disagree with but all in all thanks for being reasonable.

Concerning your last sentence:

So far I haven’t actually said anything smug in this thread (those who said I had were wrong to say so) but I’m about to.

The thing is, the times I’ve changed my mind or felt like I really learned something (like, not new info but a new way to think), it has been via a combination of seeing both that someone had the better argument and seeing what huge assholes the other side were. I mean, there are assholes on both sides of every argument of course, but there’s a special kind of close-my-ears-turn-off-my-brain-and-mock asshole that seems to reside wholly on the wrong side of every argument. (This implies that in some arguments both sides are wrong, and I wouldn’t deny that! ) Seeing this has on many occasions actually helped me change my mind about important things.

So I won’t pretend the posts you’re talking about are pleasant to bear–in fact, let me be honest here, they hurt my feelings very much. But I do think, given my past experience, that there’s a good chance there are people reading this thread who have never quite thought of the song (or things in general) the way I’m describing, and who are moved to think maybe there’s something to it. And they’re seeing who the assholes are. And maybe down the line somewhere this will all have a good effect.

So while I have in this thread asked people to stop hijacking it, similarly to your suggestion, and while they should in fact do so, nevertheless I haven’t gone so far as to explicitly demand that they leave, or get mods involved, or redirect them to the pit. They can do what they like. And everyone can watch.

[Frylock]

Yookeroo, “cohort” is a word I and my co-workers use every day. Moreover at this particular moment I can bring to mind at least one instance in which a non-coworker friend of mine used the word in the sense I used it above, on a topic unrelated to the context I use it in at work. None in this cohort has punched any others in the cohort yet.

I was extremely fortunate not to experience much real bullying in school, but I saw plenty of it happening to others, including friends of mine. You’re bringing those memories back. What were things like for you in school?

[bienville]

@Frylock

I don’t think I have anything to add to that argument that hasn’t already been said.

See? This is what I like. Lots of people might make statements like this but, when you say it, you follow through with hard evidence.

[MickNickMaggies]

@Bryan_Ekers

Touch his belly!

It’s just bloating. The wrong cheese, you see.

[AnaMen]

What is weird about using the word “cohort”?

Or initiating a discussion analyzing a song in Café Society? If people think it’s too trivial, why bother commenting about it?

[Bryan_Ekers]

Mockery is commentary.

[GrandWino]

What’s funny to me is the Streisand Effect going on in this thread. Many people who’d never heard of this song are now listening to it and becoming fans, the opposite effect the OP was probably hoping to elicit.