Present day South Africa and the offensiveness of "kaffir" and "nigger"

I used to work with a (white) guy who grew up in South Africa, and he said that as a kid, which I would guess would have been in 1950s or so, “kaffir” was much more offensive than “nigger”, both used as slurs against blacks.

Is this still the case?

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Yes
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I’m also a white guy who grew up in South Africa, but I’m a little more current since I left around 2004.

I think essentially “kaffir” in South Africa serves the same role as “nigger” does in the United States, namely an incredibly offensive slur against black people. So it’s probably mostly a question of familiarity.

Another difference is that for “kaffir” I don’t think there is a culture of reclaiming the word by the targeted population, something I understand you do see with “nigger”.

So essentially if a white person uses “kaffir” in South Africa it’s pretty much a given that they’re incredibly racist. In the States with “nigger” I suppose you’d need to at least entertain the possibility that they were just clueless.

A couple of observations. Both words are at the top end of offensiveness in context. In both cases it isn’t just racist. It is coupled to a subjugated race and includes the implication that the object of the slur is no better than to be so enslaved or subjugated.

Then, in context, the words implicitly carry the meaning “I wish to offend and denigrate you in the worst manner I know”. At that point the etymology of the word is only of historical interest. It carries meaning beyond its origins. Most cultures have words for such offence. However most are based upon human anatomy. Words that carry the deep historical loading of kaffir or nigger are thankfully rare. Mostly because the history that precedes them is also rare.

Out of curiosity, do “kaffir limes/lime leaves” go by a different name in South Africa, or is “kaffir” in that context unremarkable?

Driver8 and Francis Vaughan summed up the situation rather nicely. The term “nigger” is not unknown here and would likely elicit a similar reaction when used, but in the SA context it lacks the extensive historical implications and connotations of “kaffir”.

pulykamell, I’ve never heard the term “kaffir limes”. It’s definitely not a standard grocery store item here and I suspect that it would only be found in specialist stores. Wikipedia states that an alternate name would be makrut lime which I imagine would be the name used here.

I wouldn’t call it a standard item here, either, (I doubt more than 1-2% of the population have heard of them) but it shows up a lot in Thai cooking/recipes. For example, here’s the first hit for “green curry paste recipe.” My initial encounter with the term “kaffir” was via limes–it wasn’t until years later that I learned of the racially derogatory meaning. Good thing to know, just in case.

Rare? I should have thought slavery and subjugation were among the most common (and continuing) practices in history. The word slave itself can be seen as a slur on the Slavs, although I don’t think they worry too much about it.

Same for me, ‘kaffir’ was a type of lime. Glad I found out before I ate Thai food in South Africa.

True. By rare I meant rare in relatively modern times. Where modern means close enough to leave a lingering taint on the society. Slavery in the US and the troubles of South Africa are well and truly still close enough to cast a shadow into current times. More historical occurrences don’t. Maybe, just maybe, we are actually improving as a species.

[Off-topic] Yes, the leaves of makruud (kaffir lime) are a very key ingredient in Thai curry. The fruit and rind have uses also (e.g. as scent), but not for eating — it is much too sour.
We have a large makruud tree right next to our house.

Looks like I’m talking out of my ass here. Googling “kaffir lime south africa” brings up over 61 000 results. The first page contains links to a number of reputable local culinary and nursery sites.

OTOH, Googling “makrut lime south africa” yields fewer than 4000 results. First page is dominated by links to articles, mainly foreign, about the racist implications of the term kaffir lime".

So it looks like it is in use in certain culinary and horticultural circles here; I suspect that, IRL, people ask for it softly or for “k-word limes”!

I am from Southeast Asia and we use the name kaffir lime commonly!

Good thing I now know the connotation…

Apropos of nothing, I always do a double take when I see kefir at the grocery store.

Most systems of forced labour etc. weren’t racially based, historically. Serfdom in Russia ended about the same time as slavery in America and was among the worst forms of serfdom there was (worse than the western European varities, generally), but you wouldn’t know looking at a modern Russian if his ancestor was a serf or not.

To answer the OP - kaffir is more offensive i SA than nigger is in the USA - widespread socially-sanctioned usage by Whites is more recent history, it’s not used as an ingroup self-descriptor the way nigger is, it’s a word used by a minority of the majority not a majority descriptor of a minority, and it can easily get you in front of the Human Rights Commission on hate speechcharges. Even if you’rea minor.

Lots of which are talking about the offensiveness (except for Taste Mag but then, that’s Woollies for you…) - and I guarantee you no Stodels is gonna have a “kaffir lime” tree labelled as such for sale, they’ll just use the scientific name…

In general, in shops, they aren’t called kaffir limes or makrut limes. Mostly, when available (e.g. the de Waterkant Spar) they’re called “Thai limes”

Sorry, that second link should be http://www.sahrc.org.za/home/21/files/The%20use%20of%20K%20word%20at%20Laerskool%20Bergland.pdf

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

No shop here, unless the owner has an overwhelming desire to be the target of a highly negative social media campaign-is going to label anything “kaffir limes” or " kaffir lime tree", nor was I suggesting anything of the sort.

What I was genuinely surprised to see was that judging by the number of google hits on reputable sites it appears to be still used, at least informally, in culinary and horticultural circles, instead of any number of alternatives with much lesser potential to cause unnecessary offence.

I’ll take your word that the preferred alternative in advertising materials and in stores here is “Thai Lime”.

Used among South Africans or by people in other countries, where the term doesn’t have racial connotations or baggage?