So I’m up way later than I should be and I was browsing random fight videos on youtube. I see this video of a teacher demonstrating some pressure points on the face of a student leading to some kind of knockout (not sure how it’s supposed to work):
Someone in the comments section said those type of nerve attacks are in Sambo, Aikido and Jiujitsu… I do Freestyle Sambo and we do not attack pressure points like this, only chokes and joint submissions. Is it possible to knock someone out with pressure points on the face like this, and if so how does it work? I know you can tap the arteries on the side of the neck with very little force and cause someone to black out. He calls the pressure point “Gall Bladder” at one point.
There is a lot of woo in martial arts, especially traditional ones that are not sport martial arts, and I’ve never seen anything like this that wasn’t fake so I’d love an explanation.
While I haven’t watched the video, it ***sounds ***like woo–while pressure points are certainly real, and can put a serious hurt on a person if “used” correctly, I’m not aware of any that would be an instant knock-out, unless you’re talking about the choke out that you mentioned (which is used in judo and probably other arts).
Sure, but I’d love someone to watch the video and tell me more about how this is even supposed to work in theory… at least this guy is actually touching his students he is claiming to knock out, unlike Dillman explains chi KO nullification - YouTube
I am asking about the first video because his claim of “nerves” at least has a physiological, possible basis for how it could work, but I am very skeptical because I assume if there really were nerves on the face that are that easy to KO someone with, all grapplers would learn them and human beings would probably be adapted to fight that way.
The video shows him leaning the student’s neck back and applying sudden, sharp and more than a little pressure on the face with the neck cranked back. My non-medically trained brain tells me the pressure on the neck is what knocks him out, not the face touching.
The are whole books written with detailed outlines of these pressure points. They group them by the way they connect to the organs, as in acupuncture. At least this is how it was explained to me. So, for example, below the ear are points like stomach 6 - stomach 10 (don’t quote me) that have some kind of effect on the somach if hit or massaged or poked with a needle. Why hitting someone in Intestine 6, for instance, would cause them to pass out was never explained.
I watched the video and I’ve seen similar demonstrations. When the teacher you’ve been working with for 10 years tells the audience that he is going to knock you out with his pinky finger, you don’t stand there and act like a tough guy - you fall on the floor. It’s not exactly faking because you KNOW he COULD do it if he wanted. You are just show the audience how it would work.
Shiftless do you have personal experience witnessing someone getting knocked out by these pressure points, not to demonstrate that the teacher COULD do it? Do you believe that they would knock you out even if you were not resisting but not intentionally faking either?
If these techniques are only applicable to people who fall from them to not act like a tough guy, then they aren’t much use are they? When my Sambo instructor demos a submission move on me, I am not tapping to demonstrate that I’m not pretending to be a tough guy, I’m tapping because a few more pounds of pressure could break a bone or knock me out, whether I go along with it or not.
I’ve attended some pressure point seminars, and much martial arts work, over the years. There are a lot of amazing techniques that can cause some surprisingly effective results for very little physical effort. 99% of them, however, are not ‘knockout’ techniques, but ‘dear god that hurts stop doing that’ techniques, some of which the pain basically shuts down your conscious will to do much except go limp. Or they are mechanical techniques where one is skeletally locked out of moving in any particular direction except where the instructor wishes. They also require a fair amount of leverage, joint locking, manipulation. The remaining 1% are, IMHO, pretty much bunk attributable more to suggestion, like a stage hypnotist.
We had a running joke amongst ourselves about the typical pressure point demos:
Technique #35: I touch him lightly on the ear, then lightly on the meridian point #73, then HEEL KICK TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD!!!
Technique #36: A light pressure on the elbow, while angling the chin at 33 degrees, then HEEL KICK TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD!!!
Technique #37: …Mad Libs list of woo…then HEEL KICK TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD!!!
Pressure points are a joke. They only work on brainwashed students. Watch this video where an investigative reporter asked a “pressure point master” to demonstrate his techniques on real martial artists who weren’t buying his shit
I’ve also seen a no rules cage fight where a “pressure point master” was self-deluded enough to get in the cage against a kickboxer. And not just any kickboxer, but Igor Vovchanchyn. Ooops.
I don’t think it’s possible to get definitive answers. I will say, though, that martial arts, more than most other activities, should be judged by results. I’ve been doing BJJ for more than a decade, and I’ve seen the occasional new student with a background in dim mak give BJJ a try. They tend to be surprised when they try their pressure point stuff and most people don’t even notice. Those people either leave and never come back, or stay and make fun of their former stuff. I’ve never met anyone who still actively sparred in BJJ who took pressure point stuff seriously.
You have been given definitive answers. Pressure points that can be used to knock a person out as demonstrated in the video, and other similar demonstrations, do not exist. Gargoyle explained it quite clearly. Pressure points which are actually nerves cause pain. Pressure points which are actually blood vessels require time shut off the blood supply to the brain. Other ways to knock people out involve something everybody would understand as a strike, and do not have to be directed at anything called a pressure point.
All I’ve seen has been bad acting. I mean, I’ve seen the Terminator hunting Sarah Connor, but I wouldn’t take that as proof of Skynet. More seriously, I follow combat sports pretty seriously, and I’ve been involved in martial arts my whole life, including BJJ for more than a decade. I have never seen pressure points used successfully. Period.
I’ve seen pressure point experts fight in no rules fights, have everything they tried fail spectacularly, and walk away with confused looks on their faces. I’ve had guys try pressure points on me in BJJ sparring with no effect whatsoever.
More importantly I have never seen a pressure point work on anyone who didn’t have a personal investment in the pressure point stuff working.
Many years ago, after I had already spent over a decade in the martial arts, I discovered pressure points. One of my adult students actually brought me a book about them (by George Dillman, if you’re curious). I was very skeptical. Although my instructor had told me they existed, I personally doubted it, so I set out to test the most popular point, the carotid sinus.
I stood in front of my big soft couch on a carpeted floor, and poked myself somewhat firmly with my fingertips, right in the carotid sinus.
I hit the couch pretty hard. That particular point works. Believe it.
In fact, carotid sinus massage is used by medical personnel in patients with extremely high heart rate. Care is taken, as unconsciousness is quite possible if the massage is too hard.
I actually grew up with a guy who is a cop now, and he was taught at the police academy to use a firm smack to the carotid sinus to take down an attacker. Their martial arts training was not extensive, but they were taught that, at least.
If you don’t believe me, google carotid sinus massage, and/or smack yourself in the carotid sinus while standing.
If you don’t think this would work in a streetfight, take a look at this video:
A pimp decides to teach a karate instructor a lesson. Instead, pimp learns lesson, via a good old karate chop to his pimpin’ carotid sinus.
I know the cartoid artery is a legitimate point of attack, we use those chokes in sambo. I suck at anatomy so I have no idea what the difference between the cartoid artery and the cartoid sinus is. But “the thing that rushes blood to the brain to keep you conscious” is not really a pressure point in the classical sense though.
The carotid sinus lies at the point where the artery splits as it heads into the head, to the left/right of the adam’s apple. It’s a place on the body where the brain has a baroreceptor. A baroreceptor is a spot where the brain monitors your blood pressure. When it gets too high, your brain slows your heart rate to keep you safe.
Striking that point fools the brain into thinking that your blood pressure has gone up to 500/300, or something similarly dangerously high. Your brain then forces you into unconsciousness or some state along the way to unconsciousness.
Some people have hypersensitive carotid sinuses. They can knock themselves out accidentally by coughing, turning their head suddenly, etc… My guess is that a few people have the opposite condition, which is a good reason to be ready with a followup plan if striking that point doesn’t stop your attacker.
One note, though–smacking this point repeatedly is NOT a good idea. I experienced a pretty high fever later that evening after I tried it on myself, complete with fever dreams, and there are other symptoms that can occur as well, especially with harder hits. You can end up killing someone this way. Up close, it’s pretty close to being a full-blown deadly weapon.
There are some other useful points as well, but this one is easy to access, and doesn’t take much accuracy or power to be effective.
Of course, the eyes are an excellent target as well. The windpipe’s OK, but takes a solid hit to do real damage.
There are a couple of points on the limbs that are pretty effective, but limbs move around a lot more, and these specific points are smaller and require more accuracy.
The mind is the best pressure point of all. If you understand someone’s mind/emotions well enough, you almost never need worry about defending against a physical attack from them. Body language, tone of voice, and word choice can be far more effective than hands and feet.
I have personal experience of seeing demos where someone APPEARS to be knocked out by a blow to the neck. And one demo where the attacker did some combination like GargoyleWB describes. They looked way too rehearsed and the guys were clearly not unconscious, they just fall down sort of limp. Like the guy in the linked video is clearly not unconscious, he is quite cooperative when the instructor moves him around.
Working with the same people on self defense techniques for many years, I’ve noticed a tendency to cooperate to make the technique work. I do it myself. I know how the technique goes and rather than fight it I go with the flow. He is going to demonstrate blocking my punch and then do a hip throw? Then my punch is kind of weak and I sure as hell don’t fight the throw - one of us could get hurt! This is what is going on in these kinds of videos I believe. The notion that an instructor really knocks his students unconscious on a regular basis is just silly, even if he could actually do it.
Shiftless do you believe that those techniques work on people who are not going along with it for demonstration purposes, as in a real self defense situation? I feel like you’re kind of dancing around the question, since you’re the only one who claims firsthand experience with these techniques.
Of course throw demos etc you don’t resist for safety reasons, but it’s my opinion that throws work on the street against resisting opponents in a real fight, do you feel the same for pressure points?
