A lot of that sort of thing doesn’t work if one person decides not to cooperate. In Aikido class I would regularly ‘test’ the technique by deciding not to cooperate with it, just to see how it worked and if I could. Of course, I told the other student what I was doing first and didn’t try it with the instructor, who might think I was being disrespectful. I found it useful from both perspectives - here’s what I can do to break up this attack/technique and if I use it on someone else, here’s what I need to watch for, or what to do to regain control.
And the guys above are correct: A lot of it is simple pain. If you can control your reaction to the pain, the technique is going to be less effective on you.
I wrestled in high school, and in my experience what you say is one hundred percent true. When you learn a new move or technique it generally seems very easy because your opponent is working with you. When you try to incorporate the move against an unwilling opponent you find that it is much harder to execute at all. These students are going with the flow and not actively resisting. I don’t understand what the mystique is with pressure points anyway. If I have enough skill to hit a dime sized area on your neck wouldnt I be better off to punch you in the nose or liver?
Sorry I think you are misreading/misunderstanding me. I don’t believe these demonstrations are legitimate, or that the techniques would work on someone who didn’t have a vested interest in believing that they work. While Evil Economist’s anecdote is interesting, it doesn’t prove much: The people he was sparring with could’ve been lying, or inept at the techniques, etc, I could see a dim mak master making many valid arguments against how that doesn’t discredit their woo. (In fact if you watch many Kung Fu videos on youtube, there is a 90% chance that they will make excuses about how hidden REAL ancient masters would never be filmed using their uber deadly supernatural powers for some reason…)
Since Shiftless seems to be dancing around my question of whether the techniques work on someone who is not their students, if he actually believed in these nerve point type of knockouts, and could explain how they work, it’d actually be a testable and verifiable claim. Which is much more interesting that Evil Economist’s anecdotes (which I believe and respect, I’ve done BJJ myself and grapple in Sambo).
I feel this is my problem with Aikido, that a lot of the techniques cannot work on someone attempting to hurt you in a real situation, and the idea of not letting your instructor do moves on you with no resistance being “disrespectful” is absurdly ridiculous. When my instructor and I spar in grappling, I am putting up 95% resistance (so as to train safely) and he has to fight to get a submission on me, to me this is respect. Of course you don’t resist when a technique is being demonstrated though.
How do we know that’s what is happening there? I’ll try to dig up the cite later, but there was a good deal of debate on what took the pimp down in that video on a martial arts message board.
Is the point of your chin a pressure point? I can hit you there and drop you. There’s no doubt there are places on the body vulnerable to strikes. Those don’t make them a place you can touch and make someone fall over.
I never claimed touch, but the carotid sinus is the closest thing on the human body to a knockout touch point, and that’s that.
Perhaps you should get your vision checked, expand that video to full screen, and/or slow it down, because he didn’t hit him on the chin. It was a throat chop. Nobody with more than 3 months of good martial arts training karate-chops anyone on the chin. You risk breaking your pinky. The throat is softer, moves around less, and requires less force to incapacitate an attacker.
Are we going to have a long, laughably-pointless argument about whether it was a chin hit or a throat hit, just because you don’t want to concede the point?
I think the point is that as the OP and someone who practices a non woo martial art, I of course conceded that the arteries on the side of the neck can cause someone to lose consciousness. The video in my OP talked about nerves on the face you can gently press that causes a KO. I have seen other neck chopping KO videos, it is real but not a pressure point and not a nerve and it’s method of causing a K.O. is already well understood.
You’re missing my point entirely. I’m not saying he hit him on the point of the chin, or commenting on that video at all. I’m saying that I could knock you out with a punch to the point of your chin, possibly breaking more than a pinky in the process. But a strike is not a touch, and strikes don’t need to hit any mystical pressure points to knock someone out. Maybe the carotid sinus is a good place to strike someone, it doesn’t matter, you don’t incapacitate someone by simply touching it or applying a little pressure.
Whether it’s a “pressure point” or not is a matter of semantics. As to it being well-understood, I am the reason it’s now well-understood on this thread. There are no other reasons, although your wording implies that you were aware of the carotid sinus knockout previously, as well as aware of the reason that it works. I personally don’t think you had any awareness of what the carotid sinus is or how that knockout works prior to this thread, but that’s not especially interesting or important.
As far as knockout points on the face go, there’s one just below the nose at the top of the philtrum that is quite effective. However, it requires a fairly solid strike as well as unrealistic levels of accuracy to work.
There’s what amounts to a kill point on the upper forearm, but it’s a tiny point, has to be struck at the EXACT right angle, and requires a pretty solid strike as well. It’s such a difficult strike to perform correctly in a fight that it’s nothing more than a curiosity. Practically nobody could make it work in a fight.
You very much can incapacitate someone with a pretty small amount of pressure to the carotid sinus. That’s why medical personnel are advised to be very, very careful when massaging that point.
You seem to be confusing the carotid sinus with the carotid artery. I took your word for the carotid sinus thing, and acknowledged that you informed me of it already. But it is not necessary as a blow to the large, easy to hit carotid artery can interrupt the flow of blood to the brain quite easily. Again, this has nothing to do with the video I posted.
Can you name this point of death on the forearm or post a cite for it? How does it induce death?
No. Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn’t dancing around. Maybe you can explain what you mean by “pressure point.” If you hit someone hard enough in the right place on the neck you can knock them out sometimes - is that a pressure point? If you can do that consistently you are a better man than me.
I believe that the students in these videos have a vested interest in helping their instructors, a person they have probably worked with for years, show off their techniques and have fallen into a very bad habit of going along with whatever the instructor says is going to happen. Maybe the instructor really believes he is knocking someone out with a tap to the forehead, I don’t know. I don’t think the guy in the video you linked is even unconscious.
It is very hard to get a good clean strike on the throat area, let alone expect to hit a very specific point like the carotid.
Raising your shoulders a bit and keeping the chin down is enough to practically block access to the front of the neck, and this is the first thing you learn to do in martial arts training.
Maybe you can pull that trick on someone unsuspecting, but in a street or ring fight the chances are slim.
Medical personnel are taught that because they may be dealing with old men with Carotid Sinus Hypersensitivity. You’ll have to come up with some documentation before I’m going to accept that the carotid sinus is anything like a ‘pressure point’.
Anyhow, this is the thread I promised to link to before discussing the hit. “Brachial plexus stun” seems to be the police name for this hit, but there is some lively disagreement in that thread.
Put it this way, whatever it was, it knocked him out, but I’m not convinced from a low resolution video that it simply wasn’t an old-fashioned knock out.
Knock out pressure touch points are bunk. The punch in the vid was a strike - and a lucky one. The pimp stayed down because his head hit the street.
I’ve studied several martial arts through the years (Kook Sul, Aikido, Karate). Most all of the techniques for instant incapacitation require a willing partner. The exceptions being being the standard punching and kicking techniques. Ironically the much maligned Tae Kwon Do is better in this regard. If you want to learn a fighting art for street defense take a grappling, boxing or an MMA class.
I actually posted a video with a clean, practically perfectly-executed carotid sinus hit…and the response is that it doesn’t work, or it can’t be done in a real fight.
AAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Granted, the pimp was standing straight up, and not in a fighting stance…but only an idiot tries to hit someone who’s already in a fighter’s semi-crouch. In that case, you wait for them to expose themselves with an attack on you…or, even better, walk away, or talk your way out of it. it’s a rare situation that can only be solved with a head-to-head battle between two experienced fighters.
And it’s not at all hard to hit this point if you’re already grappling with someone. You just wait for your opportunity while staying in motion and keeping compact. Of course, that’s a useful strategy for standup fighting as well. ROFL