Preventing Suicide Question (pretty long)

Great Debates
1

I have a friend who is pretty much in the same condition that I am, with few differences. Those of you who aren’t familiar with my story that’s already been splashed all over the Dope, you can read most of in this thread where most of my history is and I’ll spare our one poor hamster and bandwidth not repeating it.

But about her, suffice it to say that she too is agoraphobic, but has been so much longer than me. She’s been in and out of psych hospitals too for various suicide attempts (also more times than I) and has seen her share of doctors, psychiatrists and therapists, as well as taking every known medication on the planet. So we’re almost twins in this regard, pretty much sharing a propensity for severe depression, OCD, panic attacks and the like. About the only difference is that she’s single without any support (she’s estranged – like I ought to be – from her family) from almost anyone, except me.

Now to my question…

She desperately longs to give up. She no longer sees any hope left (we’re even more on the same wave length there, but that’s a whole 'nother thread) and she’s worn out from the constant fight and struggle. She’s come around a couple of times to almost back to normal and functioning, only to lose it despite her best efforts to the contrary. This last bout appears to have put her over the edge. And although I know exactly where she’s coming from, I feel like a hypocrite begging her not to kill herself.

So, is it wrong to be selfish and want to keep her here regardless of how much pain she’s in? And how long she’s suffered? I mean, I tell her (even though it’s freakin’ hard since I don’t necessarily believe it myself) that things are BOUND to eventually get better. That once she gives in, it’s over and whatever is around the corner (hopefully, it’ll be an improvement, but we don’t discuss the obvious other possibilities), she’ll never see. I tell her how great a loss it would be. How lonely without her. What a contribution she makes. How much I’ll miss her.

But you know what? It all sounds hollow in the face of her anguish. It’s like the only reason she hangs on is because she’s worried about me and is afraid that I’ll be disappointed or sad or hate her. And at first, I didn’t care what her reasoning was, just as long as I kept her here. Now though, that seems so wrong to not want her to have peace for my benefit. She always asks HOW LONG is she supposed to wait for her potential miracle? Apparently longer than she already has, but is another year enough? Ten? Twenty? What if she gets to the end of her natural life (and this question concerns me as well – I think about it all the time) and she waited patiently, while working her ass off to fix her problems (because she does), and nothing happens? She dies like God intended, but with no life and miserable the whole time.

Isn’t that wrong of us to ask them to keep on keeping on for us? If they truly have tried everything for what almost is forever?

God, I’m so conflicted. I don’t want her to hurt (just like I’d prefer not to), but it’s like no one/nothing can help. And she just goes on, barely existing, for everyone but her. She tries and tries, all to no avail. I don’t want her to continue to be dead on the inside, but I don’t want her to be dead on the outside either. Please give me an idea of what other people think about this specific dilemma.

And I don’t mean the “suicide is… for cowards/ a weakness/ a permanent solution to a temporary problem” because 1.) she’s anything but a coward, has never been weak and her difficulties have been nothing but permanent since they begin. I just want an honest debate about this rather than any knee-jerk reactions and clichés. I’d also appreciate no hellfire and brimstone damnation about someone killing themselves going to hell. We’re both completely well-versed on that one.

Thank you.

Oh, and I’ll be more than happy to answer any questions (that I can) about her situation if I haven’t provided the details adequately enough already. I’ll give out as much information as I can.

Thanks again.

2

I don’t see why you should feel bad for telling someone that they’re an important part of your life. Most people are desperate for somebody to tell them that. It seems like a kindness to me.

Plus, if there comes a point where she really decides to commit suicide, nothing you could do would talk her out of it, right? She has stuck around to this point because she wanted to. Perhaps she uses you a sounding board to vent her frustration, but do you really believe that she actually wants to kill herself?

The one person I’ve known who killed himself gave no indication to any of his friends or family that he was going to do it. If he had told any of us ahead of time, somebody would have most likely interfered with his plans. Very IMHO, but I guess if your friend actually decided it was time, you’d be the last person she would tell.

3

hopefool, I didn’t mean to hit submit on that post. I really don’t think I’m qualified to be in this thread. Sorry if anything in my post is offensive or not what you were looking for.

4

just a question to see get a better idea of your’s (and her) situation: what do you both believe about the “afterlife”? I think regardless of the answer, either way it has implications to your view on this. thanks

5

You are a good friend **Hopefool **

Whatever she decides, let that be a comfort to you. Wishing you both strenght.

6

First of all, I’d like to give you a link.Cecil’s Place is an on-line support group for depressed Dopers which I set up. It is not connected with this website in any way, except that it was inspired by the people I’ve seen here.

I’ve suffered from depression for most of my life now, and, last winter, when I was laid off in a rotten economy, I too could have given any number of reasons why it was illogical for me to continue to live. Hopefool, I think you’ve seen some of the stuff I’ve posted about what I’ve put up with in my life. 10 years ago, this disease nearly killed me, and it’s still something I struggle with. Like you, I have a mutual non-self-destruction with a friend.

Here are some reasons .
[ul][li]Depression distorts your thinking.[/li]I could give you a run down of what was going through my mind at times this winter, but I’d prefer not to. Suffice it to say I sincerely believed I’d be doing my friends, such as they were, and family a favor by killing myself. I couldn’t see any hope, any good thing about myself, any reason to hang on. When I’m severely depressed, I see myself as unlikable, unlovable, and ugly.

[li]Things can get better.[/li]When I entered the mental hospital 10 years ago, I did not expect to get out again. I thought I was untreatable and doomed. Then I was misdiagnosed and released! :rolleyes: During the next year, thanks to a different doctor and some very good friends, I was properly diagnosed and got some very good treatment. Last year, I decided to go back into therapy. The work I’ve done did still more to ease and heal old scars and give me better coping mechanisms.

[li]You and your friend are better liked than you know.[/li]Cecil’s Place got started because of a Pit thread which I started in which I just plain needed to vent (the Pit thread disappeared during the Winter of Our Missed Content). I was still pretty new around here, and I was expecting it to drop like a stone. I was amazed at how many Dopers came out of the woodwork to support me and tell me they knew what I was going through because they were going through the same thing.

[li]Dorothy Parker[/li]If you haven’t read this before, I’ll put it up here:

I know it’s not much, but I’ve had my share of days and nights where all I can do is hang on. [/ul]

I admit in my case, religion helps. If I were an Atheist, I suspect I might have not have survived this, although I admit I might have found a different coping mechanism.

You’re not being selfish by telling her how much you’d miss her. A friend of mine did the same thing for me this winter, and that helped keep me going. It turns out that now, having survived with his help, I’m currently returning the favor by helping him through a rough patch. I do not know why some people suffer from this disease, but I cannot believe God intends her to die of this disease any more than he intends someone with heart disease to die of a heart attack. I know what it is to want to give up. I’ve longed to do that myself. Please, don’t let the disease distort your thinking.

BrightNShiny, I just wanted to say you’re not out of line or offensive in my opinion. In fact, you got one thing just right. When I am severely depressed, it’s difficult for me to reach out and communicate. If I’m well enough to tell people I’m suicidal, there’s still a spark of hope. The threat and the feeling may be there, and in my case, it was, but there’s still something within me which is fighting it. I have called a friend and left a message on his answer machine, then not killed myself because I knew that if he got the message, he’d call me back and, when I didn’t answer would take steps to prevent me from killing myself. That phone call may have made the difference.

Hopefool, we are indeed fools to hope, especially in my case when logic tells me there is no hope, but hope is a stubborn critter which will not die, despite my best attempts. You’re not selfish; you just don’t want to see someone who brings you joy and pleasure surrender to agony and pain. Sign up at Cecil’s Place if you like, and e-mail me if you need to.

CJ

7

Dear Hopefool,
I actually wanted to respond to your original thread from a few months ago (**When psych hospitals fail… **). I don’t know if you have seriously considered ECT (“shock therapy”), but it is not as bad as Hollywood and certain people might make it out to be. It may seem scary and even barbaric, but there are some instances when it will work where nothing else will. My brother spent some time in an institute for severe OCD. The sessions, drugs, etc did not work at all, and if anything, it seemed his accompanying depression was getting worse. Well, as a ‘last resort’ they tried ECT. It is true that he had the short term memory loss and all that, but the treatment was completely effective, and 3 years down the road now he has no symptoms either of OCD or clinical depression. It may not be pretty (though it is much better now than it was years ago), they may still not know exactly how it works, but it CAN work. My brother is the proof. Do think about it.

My thoughts are with you.

8

Hopefool,

I would say think perhaps you should attempt to convey to her your feelings, but you’ve already done that. I think you should try and show her that not everything is so bleak, don’t go on about how much suicide sucks, just show her how damn great life can be (I think that sounds dirty, but bugger it), see if you can find any interesting for her to try out.

When you’re depressed, it clouds your judgement. She’ll lie to herself about the situation, make up bullshit just to make herself feel worse. Remember, she believes she’s pathetic, a waste of skin, etc.

See if you can find anything she really wants to do, maybe she wants to see her dear mum over in Japan or something and if you could help her achieve whatever it is she wants then perhaps that could help.

I’ve always felt that dabbling in the artistic disciplines always made me feel somewhat better. Actually, the script writer who wrote “Taxi Driver” was suicidal at the time, writing that film brought him out of it.

At any rate, don’t cut all contact with her, but make sure not to smother her.

I hope this all works out for the best,

Ashley Smart

9

Sorry everyone for not replying again until this morning… my computer started acting flooey last night and so I just gave up and went to bed. Then, just like magic, today it’s fine. sigh Technology, right.

Anyway, in order…

BrightNShiny - I appreciate your thoughts no matter what. And like Siege said, it IS usually indicative of someone who wants help rather than to actually end it all. But in her case, and sometimes mine, it is so persistent (like a foregone thought – that it’s already been a fait accompli in some parallel universe maybe) and right at the fore of every idea and moment inside your brain. I do feel she’s serious, but perhaps waiting. For what, I’m not certain. Like I said in the OP, sometimes I think that it’s just for me and others, well, she may be too tired to try and kill herself or fearful that she’ll make a muck of things and then further end up as someone else’s responsibility (which is one of the reasons that I don’t). But again, thank you for sharing your opinion with me.

johnny miles - I was raised a fundamentalist, so I’ve fought back years of fearing hell. I’ve finally come to a place where I believe that, hopefully, God wouldn’t possibly punish a person twice (once in life with this cursed affliction and once in death with damnation) who took their own life and instead, would offer them, at the very least, peace. I know that I stay continually at odds with how I was taught versus what I feel/know to be true, but I suppose if I ever took that step, it’s an issue I’d be prepared to deal with, even eternally. As for my friend, she’s an atheist, so she sees nothing on the other side, which, for her, appears to be a vast improvement. Hope that helps.

gum - Thank you so much for your kind words. One would be amazed to know how much something that seems so small can help. You’ve put a lift in my heart today that otherwise wouldn’t have been there. God bless you.

Siege - First of all, thanks for the link. I will be joining because I desperately need it (and if I could get her online, she would too). It’s nice to know you’re not alone and as is evident by what everyone has said, this damn thing does distort and my first course of action, just like my friend’s, is to isolate. I don’t want to burden other people, make them tired of hearing my constant “woe is me” refrain, but mostly, because there’s nothing to be done. It just is. So, I really do appreciate you bringing that to my attention and welcoming me there. Heaven knows, I can’t imagine where I’ll now end up spending most of my time… there or here. Decisions, decisions.

All that said, I am SO glad you’ve come through on the other side and our doing so much better. I have read so many of your postings, especially when you were having spiritual issues, and my heart just broke for you. I’m thrilled to know that there is some hope, be it ever so small. But let me ask you this… did you ever get tired of “staying” on this earth because of what you were afraid it would do to others or how it would make them feel? See, this is where I think she’s coming from (and where I’ve been too) because, at what point, has one tried enough? She is considerably older than me and not in the best of health anyway, so if she did pass away naturally, I think I’d feel forever guilty that she fought it out to the bitter end with the promise dangled in front of her that it might get better, but it didn’t and she wasn’t afforded any peace by being able to make her own decision. Does that make sense?

Regardless of my mutterings/ramblings, I am grateful for your contributions on this. I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say and seeing you at Cecil’s Place. Big hug to you for that. Thanks.

RobertP - Thanks for coming out of lurkerdom just to help me out. God, I know how hard that is and especially to talk about what’s worked for and helped your brother. That’s wonderful that he’s doing better and on your recommendation, I promise to look into that further (because I’m still struggling more than anyone will ever know, even my friend, since I don’t want to make things worse for her), but I must be honest, I’m still absolutely scared shitless of that stuff. The first psych hospital I was in did ECT treatments and the patients receiving them seemed dazed at best, sick and more depressed at the worst. But I promise to do plenty of reading up on it and try to make an informed decision rather than one based solely on supposition and fear. Thank you for the suggestion.

John Mullets - (Love the name, BTW!) All your ideas are very sound. Unfortunately, we’re both in that place (she longer than I) were we’ve pretty much exhausted anything that gave us pleasure or a brief respite as some sort of trick against the depression, etc., to hold it at bay. I know I’ve lost interest in all the things I used to love without exception. Even a few mild desires, like being on the Dope, pass rather quickly. However, with her I think I’ll give it another shot because (unlike me who goes 'round and 'round with re-trying things on a damn near daily basis) it’s been a while since she tried her mainstay… photography. Maybe I’ll lure her just out to the backyard with promises of needing professional type pictures of my pup which only she can provide and I otherwise couldn’t afford. It’s worth a shot. And if one thing leads to another… <insert much wishful thinking here>

Lastly, thank you all again for answering and helping and being encouraging. Sometimes you just feel like your supposed to be the way bailing out the ship but your drowning, so it’s kind of redundant. But I shall never give up on her. I may give up on me, but that’s something else entirely. Thanks once more. I’ll eagerly be awaiting, hopefully, more input.

(P.S. That little tidbit about the author of “Taxi Driver” was fascinating John Mullets! Just goes to show that you never know. I might have to look him up as well and see if there’s anything he can add to make our plight better. Thanks much!)

10

Yes, within the past month. It’s been nearly 40 years, and I get tired some times. My stock rationalization at times like this is, while it may hurt my friends in the short run if I were to kill myself, they’d be better off without me in the long run.

The thing is, we continue to touch lives if we fight this disease and if we choose to. If I had killed myself as a teenager, I never would have met the guy I nearly married, and never had the chance to make a difference to a certain teenager I knew years ago in Hawaii. If I’d succeeded in dying when I was nearly catatonic 10 years ago, I would never have discovered this message board, or gotten to know the wonderful real-life friends I’ve acquired. If I’d killed myself this winter, I would never have had a chance to get to know you, hopefool, and my friend would have one less person to lean on during the current crisis.

Now, how much my life is worth does not depend on how much good I do – I’m typing this slowly because it’s a lesson I’m still trying to learn – but there is still a lot of joy to be found. Last Saturday, I was emotionally exhausted, but I hauled myself out to an SCA event at a town 75 miles away, where I watched fencers playing tic-tac-toe! (Don’t ask. :eek: ) Next weekend, I’ll be wrestling an alligator! Tonight, reading this thread has convinced me to get out of my chair and go join a bunch of knitters at a local bookstore. When come back bring pi shawl! Even hanging out with my family by the pool yesterday brought me a certain measure of joy and peace, which I needed rather badly.

I won’t deny that it’s rough. I’ve been known to mutter that suicides do indeed go to hell, only they do it before they die. On the other hand, we’re in good company. Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln also suffered from clinical depression, and they had far more responsibility in far worse times. While I may never be able to use words like Mr. Churchill, I can share that small thing with him.

I’m glad I could help, and it’s a pleasure knowing you.
CJ

11

This verse is quotes not as authoritave, but because it brings peace to me when I read it.
ECCLESIASTES, (The Preacher), Chapter 3 Perhaps one of the most beautiful verses in the old Testament, and President Kennedy’s, favorite. The first 8 verses of this chapter almost sing as they are read.
1 TO every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so
that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

In Gods plan there is a time for the pleasant and the unpleasant.
Please do not take offense when I suggest that you (meaning your friend) contact your (your friends) doctor. There may be a clinical reason for your friends suffering. A reason that is readily treatable. Even if the problems are identified as physical problems, not related to any possible medical condition, please call as the manner in which these problems are interpenetrated may suffer due to another underlying cause. It is worth the call, seriously, one call.

Is your friend holding the short end of life stick? In her opinion? In your opinion? Did she abandon religion (God) because she was being ignored, or treated unfairly by God? Were those feelings realistic? (in your view)
Did he seek unrealistic intervention?
Understand that;
Gods never promise us a path lined with flowers, green grass and singing birds. He said there would be thorns on occasion.
He never promised us endless days of sunshine without a few stormy days of rain.
He never promised that we would exist without suffering free from all pain.
He never said our path would be easy, and downhill all the way.
He never promised we would be successful at everything, or anything even.
He never promised us we would have all we wanted, or anything we felt we needed.
He never said sorrow wouldn’t enter our lives,
He never promised endless happiness, or joy, or comfort, or gain.

What did God Promise us?
He promised we would never carry a burden heavier than we could carry.
He promised that in sorrow, he would comfort us with his warmth. (If we asked him to)
He promised he would never turn his back on us, and he would hear us when we cried to him, in need or in pain.
He promised he would carry us through our darkest hours, if we would asked him to.
He promised that he would deliver us from this mortal existence to a better place, a place where the pain, the suffering, the hurt, and even death had no claim.

He never said it would be easy, only that it would be worth it

Let me ask this of you, to ask of your friend.
If you feel God is further from you today, than yesterday, who is it that moved? God ? Your friend?
No matter what she may have done previously, or how much she feels abandoned today, ask her to retire to a private spot. To sit and think of a God, who is not unlike a father to her.
While she is in this mind set, tell her to speak to him, out loud. Tell him of the pain, the siapare, the suffering, and the need for his warmth, his guidance, and his love.
Will he listen? will he act?
If she asks, with pure intent of heart, that is, she is requesting
his intervention, even if she feels unworthy to accept it, and she offers this through the name of Jesus Christ, it will be granted.
She will be answered. God does not hate her, no matter what she has dome, or what she has said, or what she has felt previously. In fact, God stands ready to accept her, waiting only her plea. . Do this and I promise, cross my heart, tomorrow will be a better day. And the following ever better.
This may seem a strange answer to a person who believes there is no recipient for such a prayer. You don’t have to believe, you have to “want to believe”- that is enough, wanting to believe.

I wrote, and I am posting this as a personal testimony of a loving God. I have no desire to defend, to any degree, this testimony. Silence is Golden

12

To the OP:

Yes, you are being selfish. That is what friends do. This is not a bad thing in this case. People who are far gone (i.e. depressed to a very serious degree) are often unable to see what light there may well be, or sometimes it is just much easier (i.e. less taxing) to stay in the depression. When I ws suicidal there were things that most people would look at and say “Thank the lord I have this. I am blessed”. I just looked at it as one more thing I had to deal with.

Not to be overly simplistic or “hey, cheer up, life gets better”-y in that annoying-as-anything Hallmark Way[sup]TM[/sup], but would it make life more difficult for your friend if she got a pet of some sort? Loneliness often breeds/deepens depression, and it seems to me that part of her struggle might be that issue.

I’ll leave the issues in Beryl’s post for someone else to deal with. Drive-by witnessing is not something I deal with well under any circumstances.

13

Thanks 'punha for your answer. But believe it or not, she does have pets, quite a few actually and, like with me, things that used to help (like her babies), just don’t cut it anymore. So, I guess I’ll just do the best I can with her and pray that if she decides it’s not worth the pain, that she’ll go in peace.

Thanks all. Especially you, Siege. You gave me a lot more to think about and I’ll be ‘seeing’ you at Cecil’s Place. :slight_smile:

14

I wish I had good advice. I hate reading questions like this and realizing that I’m 32 years old and I know nothing.

The best advice I can give is this: Tell your friend you love her. You’ll love her no matter what. You love her too much to let her leave without a fight.

You get to burden her with your wants, just as she gets to burden you with her fears and problems. That’s what love is all about!

Julie

15

Definitely not going to suggest a line of treatment but I will relate my personal observations (of myself).

Everyone has “good” days and “bad” days. Chemical imbalance aside, the feelings during a “bad” day will assuredly feed on themselves if allowed. I think this is a common experience for everyone. It’s human nature to carry your troubles around like a suitcase full of unwanted clothes.

Over the years (I’m mid 40’s) I’ve developed a habit of intervention when I was having a “bad day feeding frenzy”. The act of stopping myself and acknowledging a bad day, is a very important step in salvaging the day.

You obviously have the presence of mind to know that you shouldn’t feel the way you do. There are many techniques you can use to steer your thoughts into the proper direction. I don’t use the same methods each time, I look at the situation, and taylor my thoughts accordingly. The techniques don’t matter per se, it is the attempt that is important. The attempt, by itself, will steer my thoughts in a more positive direction.

You’ve demonstrated that you have the presence of mind to recognize your condition. You need to believe that you can be helped by medical science and that it will take persistence to find the right doctor who can provide both physical help (proper medication) and mental health. You can take charge of your life by keeping a diary of what medications you’ve taken, and what reaction you’ve had. You can do the same for your nutritional needs. I’ve found a surprising connection to my diet and how I feel both physically and mentally.

As for your relationship with your friend, it can be a positive thing for both of you to work toward a common goal. If you can channel your energies into common hobbies you will find yourselves talking and enjoying life more. Go biking, hiking, camping, fishing, See a funny movie, have an ice cream cone, take cooking classes together. Ride a roller coaster, visit a museum in a city you’ve never been too. I could continue this list until the end of time.

I wish you and your friend well.