No matter what side of an argument you are on, there are always people you wish were on the other.
Embryos will fail to implant even under the best conditions… as in the fertilized in situ variety. <wink wink nudge nudge> Since this is God’s Will, it must follow that embryos, or even blastocysts, do not have souls, or else He is the greatest abortionist murderer of all time, that cheeky bastard.
Lord…this old chestnut again?
It’s not like this is a brand spanking new pro choice argument that will stump pro life folks.
Are folks who are opposed to domestic violence (you know…people who want to tell other people not to smack their spouses…i.e impose a moral belief system) less than honest or pure in their beliefs, if they don’t personally shelter the abused women?
(and countless other similar examples).
If you even have pro choice folks wincing at your logic…you may wish to regroup the troops.
BTW…did you really need to put a hard carriage return at the end of every damn line…forcing the reader to scroll 3 times more than necessary?
[QUOTE=DirkGntly]
[quote=Blalron]
The vast majority of sexual encounters do not result in conception. Sex does not equal pregnancy.
I think there’s a rather popular religion right now based on this very thing happening. 
Scopata Fuori, you may be interested to know that the Catholic Church opposes in vitro fertilization in addition to abortion.
http://www.geocities.com/seapadre_1999/reproductive-technologies.html
So some pro-lifers, on this score, aren’t hypocrites at all. They have a logically and morally complete answer to the dilemma you’ve posed.
Though that answer, I’m sure, will hardly satisfy you.
Thank Glub I ain’t Catlick, then! And neither is the biological mother.
They sure do. One I would never argue with. They don’t believe in having abortions, so they refrain from doing so.
Scopata Fuori
<sigh>
Perhaps I shall start another thread in a more appropriate forum…on a completely sanitary, objective subject: Logic 102, or Oranges aren’t Apples, even if All Apples are Fruit, and Some Fruits are not Oranges.
Let me factor this down one more time.
If “n” makes a Choice, then “n” must accept the outcome of that Choice.
Scenario 1:
(“A”) carefully considers Choice X and Choice Y.
(“A”) chooses Choice X.
(“A”) accepts the outcome of Choice X, or more specifically, not to accept the outcome of Choice Y.
(“B”) is not at all involved, and therefore does not share the responsibility.
Scenario 2:
(“A”) carefully considers Choice X and Choice Y.
(“B”) forces (“A”) to accept the results of Choice Y, or more specifically, not to be able to accept the outcome of Choice X.
Since (“B”) has in effect chosen Choice Y, then (“B”) should be the one to accept the outcome of that Choice.
Or:
If Alfred makes a choice then Alfred must accept the outcome of that choice.
Alfred carefully considers whether to have the fish for dinner, or have the lasagna for dinner.
Alfred chooses to have the fish for dinner.
Alfred accepts that he will eat fish for dinner, and accepts that by choosing fish, he is avoiding the choice of eating lasagna, which he dislikes intensely.
But here comes sign wavin’ Brenda: “Save the Fish!” Brenda has just signed a petition and participated in a noisy march on Washington to protest the murder of fish.
Brenda shows Alfred bloody, gory pictures of gutted fish, tells him stories of their suffering and of their tormented little souls, ripped from their salty ocean womb. Makes Alfred feel guilty. Convinces him he must not have fish for dinner, no matter what! Alfred is no longer able to eat fish, and Brenda is gloating.
Now Alfred must eat lasagna for dinner, even though he dislikes it intensely, and the very smell of it sickens him. Brenda has removed the choice of eating fish from his menu of options.
Alfred eats the lasagna, and vomits copiously on the floor.
Since Brenda made the decision that lasagna was to be eaten, by removing the choice of fish, therefore Brenda must accept responsibility for the outcome (vomit).
If Alfred had been left alone to choose between eating fish or eating lasagna, he would have been wholly repsonsible for the outcome. He chooses to eat fish, he has a happy belly. He chooses to eat lasagna, he accepts that he is eating something he dislikes intensely and must be responsible for cleaning up the outcome: the mess.
Now, I’m not here to administer the Clue Bat, nor to engage in the old pro-choice/anti-choice debate, but to round up support for the intended fetii.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Scopata Fuori
Ooooooooh yay! Cold, hard, logic, which always dictates law and human behavior.
Person T sees person U.
Person U is wearing a red shirt.
Person T doesn’t like red.
Person T kills person U.
Person A-S and V-Z are not affected by actions of Person T.
Therefore, everyone continues life normally.
Man, I wish this was the Pit. I’d make some kind of comment about people signing each post like a 14 year old schoolgirl or something.
Nothing like asking for the public’s (a few Pro-Lifers) help when berating them at the same time… :dubious: Ever try being nice when asking for help, or do you just belligerently degrade a certain group until they cave and give in to your whimsical demands?
Your agenda is disturbing at best and your rhetoric speaks volumes. Since this is the Great Debates section…I’m going to ask for you to provide a cite about this “dilemma” you thrust upon this messageboard (mostly Pro-Choice posters mind you), when there are other means to disperse the embryos more effectively through hospitals and clinics. :dubious: Surely your friend/relative has tried other means of dispersing the embryos…it is newsworthy…so, kindly point us to a news cite so we may find out more how we can help without the whoosh factor.
“Adequately compensated” if you take them, yet asking for donations to support them? This reeks too. :dubious:
Being a new poster doesn’t really help your case either. Tread lightly.
Anyone else wondering why the hell Alfred made the lasagna to begin with if he hates it so much?
Maybe he made it by accident, in the heat of the moment… or maybe he forgot to take his lasagna control pills. Maybe some asshat wouldn’t let him go to the pharmacy and get a evening-of pill to stop the lasagna from being baked in the first place. Or maybe he’s just irresponsible and makes lasagna without caring about the consequences because he enjoys layering cheese.
Here’s a bad kitty…you hold him while I put this gun to his head…
“Ok…cat lovers…If you want this cat to stay alive, give me donations on PayPal, or send Alfred’s Lasagna to me, or you better come pick this little pussy up by the end of the month before his sandbox gets repossessed.” I don’t care if most of you guys are dog lovers who are forced to love kitties, you better take responsibility for this kitty or you’re all a bunch of hypocrites. Yeah, maybe my friend created this kitty in an unnatural setting, but that doesn’t mean you fricken cat lovers are off the hook. You have till the end of the month, or you have no credibility of being cat lovers."
<click>
Or rather, shaking the tree for potential gestational surrogates, and relishing the chance to point out the irony of fetus-saving in a logical fashion.
I’m not sure what you are asking. A cite?
They are not being offered for dispersal. Every embryo is wanted by the biological mother. She cannot, however, gestate them at this point.
News cite? Perhaps I am missing something.
Hhhm, perhaps I was not clear on this point. Looking for someone to gestate the embryos, willing to pay for her services. Otherwise, willing to accept donations to keep the little fellows in the deep freeze, which will prevent their demise. And preventing the demise of embryos/fetii is the anti-choice goal, no?
I’ve offered use of my freezer, myself, indefinitely; let’s hope no one poking around there decides to sample the meaty olives, if it comes to that.
Didn’t realize that verbosity = credibility. :o
Scopata Fuori
Yes, dearie, but it doesn’t work when you intentionally put a fetus in danger to force someone else to suffer a horrible hardship for the most of a year.
Are you a woman, by the way? If so, why haven’t you volunteered yourself? As you say, this is a noble cause.
It’s a nice way of calling you a steaming liar.
When you speak like an idiot, expect to be treated like one. How well I know that!
Nobody’s intentionally putting a fetus in danger. Fact is, it costs dearly to keep the little fellows in the deep freeze indefinitely; and they just don’t have that long of a shelf life. Freezer burn, maybe. Neither of us would intentionally the defrost button.
Horrible hardship? You’re not referring to…the blessed state of gravidity, are you? I’m not disagreeing with you, there.
My sprog-gestating days are over. The next best thing I can do is help find a gestational surrogate. I am pro-choice, and am attempting to find a way to allow these embryos to be born. And I see no irony in that whatsoever.
About what? The fact that these iced zygotes eggsist, or that I am trying to help ferret out a gestational surrogate?
The fine point about another person being unwilling to take responsibility for a choice they foisted upon another…seems to be up in the clouds. <sigh>
Was a fine debate, though. ;j
Am I the only one who is thinking the OP is bullshitting to begin with?
Regrettably, I am not.
I would vastly prefer that the biological mother not have had her reproductive choices suddenly curtailed by a recurrent case of a particularly virulent pathology. And that these eight zygotes not have been necessitated in hopes of preserving her reproductive ability. It’s not a choice I would have personally made, but I am all for having that choice to make. I wish these egglets did not “have” to have been created. But since they have been, I feel compelled to do what I can to give her the choice to bring them into the world. If neither one of us can locate a gestational surrogate, or can no longer afford to keep them in the deep freeze, there’s no choice there…they get snuffed.
I want to keep the choice available…the choice to “choose life”. A paradox, it seems. But it is not at all out of keeping with a pro-choice attitude.
Being pro-choice doesn’t mean pro-abortion. If I lived in China, I’d be an advocate for allowing women to have the choice to have their babies rather than to abort at behest of the totalitarian state. Population concerns are a different issue.
I’m just not a bullshitter, it’s simply not in my nature.
Your “irony” is oh so “rusty”…
Find the surrogate mothers yourself and get off your high one-legged horse…
Yes, a cite…your friend/relative must be desperate looking for help in this matter in looking for surrogate mothers, that I’m sure a local news-station or local paper would have some interest in the story…especially your gracious offer of using your own fridge to help in this great time of need. I bet they would love to hear your view of the story minus the ranting of your crazed attempts of rubbing dogcrap in our collective faces.
No cite? Then maybe you are not sincerely trying hard enough for the sake of the embryos…or maybe you really are full of dogcrap…it’s really up to you to back up these shakey claims.
That’s an understatement…already addressed previously. Read much?
And again, if your going to take donations, you better have more credibility with more cites to back you up regarding the issue at hand…Only fools throw money to strangers who try to work on people’s guilt without credible back up…Sally Struthers, you’re not. You’re coming across as a twisted 419’er.
…And your verbosity isn’t helping your credibility…verbally, your a treading water and not getting anywhere here. The solution is already out there, so what is the REAL reason why you are bemoaning it here? :dubious:
I hope for your sake you’re not making this up to incite a certain response. Da management kind of frowns on that kind of thing…again, tread lightly.
And pull your brains out of the freezer before some mistakes them for a frozen peanut.
Perhaps. But I don’t want it to come to that. Just because I’m not to the point of purchasing a thirty minute informercial to attract potential zygote hostesses, doesn’t mean I should not explore the matter fully in other arenas.
I think you’ve missed the point. Period. And for sake of correctness, let’s refer to it as “meconium”, shall we?
Already did, before posting here. Which led me to enough anti-choice linkage, to ponder whether the aforesaid pro-lifers would jump at the chance to score some serious Halo Points <<double double bonus>>
Now, now. Who’s being out of line, here?
Thank Glub.
What exactly are you insinuating?
To incite intelligent debate on an ethical and moral issue. What is the REAL reason you want to turn this into a personal attack? Get thee to the BBQ Pit then.
WTF are you referring to? If you don’t believe the scenario I have put forth, that is up to you. I have nothing to gain by deliberately inserting a hearthwarming fable in this forum.
Actually finding a gestational surrogate is another matter. The suggestion was put forth as an afterthought, and serves to validate the matter.
If I want to stir up the sanctimonius, poke the pious, and heckle the hypocrites, there’s far more amusing forums to play with. I came here in hopes of finding intelligent debate, and vicariously resolving some of the ethical issues I still find myself tussling with, on this matter. Water’s not as deep as I’d hoped, and far murkier.
Certainly you wouldn’t be attempting to lean heavily on another poster, in an attempt to draw attention away from the matter at hand? Your veiled threats, in a stern, humorless attempt at ending productive debate in favor of forcing me to defend the veracity of my OP, aren’t panning out. Sorry. If you aren’t willing to continue the Great Debate, and wish to turn this into a flamefest, again, get thee to the BBQ Pit.
I’m so hurt.
Now, back to the regularly scheduled programme:
Let’s take a look at your true intentions, shall we? [bolding mine]
…and then your most recent post…[snipped for sanity sake & bolding mine again]…
Well, which is it? Hello, Kettle…
You should have started your rant in the Pit because your rhetoric was not placed here for debate, it was meant to incite; at first you were actually trying to solicit surrogate mothers and donations from the SDMB group (a terrible choice to choose from to begin with), and at the same time, offering your thinly veiled backhand to your offer. Nobody here deserved your jerkiness from the onset.
Your sister can easily inquire about surrogate mothers, but you decided that solution is just too obvious (and no fun for you), and your agenda needed to be stretched out by a factor of 10. If it’s intelligent debate that you want, then your rhetoric should have taken the back seat and the OP should have been scaled down to a paragraph or two. Don’t blame us for the “murky waters” here…your oar(OP) stirred up the most sediment in this thread.