pro-Palestinian thread, part 2

Dick Dastardly, you do realize that Ben-Gurion’s assertions were ultimately rejected by Jews, since they actually DID sign the UN partition agreement…right? Trotting him out to ‘prove’ your point really shows how little you understand what was going on, what he was about, and the position of the majority of Jews in the leadership prior to the formation of Israel. His place in Israeli history became so strong because he was proved right…the Palestinian’s rejected the plan and set off decades of war and strife in the region.

-XT

Agreed. As with any country, there is a balance, with things to be proud of and things to be…not so proud of. But Israel has done great things in it’s history, and it’s citizens can be proud of them.

Yeah, there are, though obviously you don’t see them. Tell me, DD, what do you think the Palestinian’s have to be proud of? Can you list some of the things they have done that they, as a people, can be proud of? I can think of a few, but I’m interested in what YOU come up with.

-XT

Even Benny Morris thinks that Ilan Pappe is full of something that rhymes with Pappe.

Of course, along the way there was an organized Nazi movement in Europe that wanted to make the Jewish population negligible, period.

I mean, if we’re talking historical context and all.

Of course Mr. Pappe’s work is a bit more than controversial -

Cite.

Mr. Pappe has had issues with the truth in the past, particularly in reference to an Israeli massacre which seems to have been based largely on false testimony (cite), and about which the original reporter stated “After checking and re-checking the evidence, it is clear to me now, beyond any doubt, that there is no basis whatsoever for the allegation that the Alexandroni Brigade, or any other fighting unit of the Jewish forces, committed killing of people in Tantura after the village surrendered.” Yet Pappe continues to insist that it really happened.

IOW, do you have a credible cite for what you claimed?

Regards,
Shodan

Well, in DD’s defense, his quote of Ben-Gurion seems to be accurate, and that’s what he was responding too (i.e. a cite showing the founders of Israel discussing ethnic cleansing as the only solution). Of course, his use of Ben as an example kind of shows his limited understanding of the mood of the pre-Israeli Jewish leadership just prior to the formation of the state…otherwise DD wouldn’t have used this quote to ‘prove’ his supposed case.

I didn’t want to get into the Pappe controversy, since it wasn’t relevant to the quote and what DD was responding too.

-XT

Wow, I feel as if a tornado touched down on a sewage treatment plant and I’m caught in the middle of the shitstorm. Over 200 posts and you guys still haven’t solved this little Israel/Palestine problem? :wink: Come on I thought you were smarter than that! :smiley:

Seriously, as I see it, nothing gets solved here and in real life because most people, as demonstrated aptly by the posters in this thread, are waaaaay more concerned about dragging up old shit and assigning blame rather than solving the crisis as it is now. **tclouie **asked in his/her first post that people come up with solutions, but immediately there was accusations of bias.

I don’t expect this Israel/Palestine thing to end in my lifetime. The reason I think that is because too many people alive in my lifetime have first or second hand experience of 1948, and things will not change until those people all die off and more apathetic people replace them. No Palestinian who’s house was taken in 1948 can reasonably be expected to not be upset and just give up all that in exchange for an empty dirt field. And no Jew with relatives who died in Hitler’s gas chambers can seriously be expected to allow himself to be that vulnerable ever again. So the blame game will continue.

If I may follow the OP’s request, there is some totally unreasonable things we can do to end the conflict in the near future. It’s a solution, just one that nobody will really accept. My idea of a compromise is when both sides are equally pissed or equally happy. This idea is probably the former.

First, both sides renounce any historic ties. You want to go back 60 years, the land belongs to the Palestinians. 80 years and it’s England’s. 1000 years and it’s the Muslims. 2000 years and it’s back to the Jews. I’m probably missing a lot of groups but the point is, many people have historic ties to the place and historic ties are irrelevent.

Palestine will have to give up their right to return. There simply is no getting rid of the millions of people who they consider stole their homes. None. And if they try to get rid of them, the Jews have nukes. I believe they’d rather use it than get pushed out of their land. So returning is absolutely out of the question.

On the other hand, Israel needs to do to all settlements in the West Bank like they did to some settlements a few years ago and that is forcibly remove the hardline religious nutcases who think they are going to claim a land by staying on it. Shoot them, kidnap them, grab them and throw them in a truck, it doesn’t matter. In fact, Israel needs to mistreat these people in order to show the world they are serious about it. So knock some heads together and remove them all. Give all of those settlements to the Palestinians.

Second, once they have the land, the Palestinians need to be able to do something with it. Israel needs to have a massive relief effort in the West Bank and Gaza to build up their infrastructure. Build settlements, but for the Palestinians instead. Build roads, schools, hospitals, everything.

Third, regarding attacks. It is a given that some crazy people from both sides, but mostly the Palestinian side (yeah, they’re worse, get over it) will try to derail the peace process. In this Israel must stand firm and completely and utterly ignore them. This tit for tat back and forth will go on forever if one side refuses to be a part of the peace process while some on the other side are attacking. So accept that an ignore them. Build hospitals while under attack. Keep giving money to the Palestinian government even if some of it trickles into the hands of terrorists. Basically, do what you need to do to make Palestine a viable country without letting sporadic extremists obstruct the process. That doesn’t mean dont’ try to stop weapons shipments from the border. But realize that Palestine is a sovereign government now. If terrorist want to launch rockets from schools, then accept that the price of retaliation is higher than that of peace and leave them alone to launch their rockets. No Israeli tank or missile should ever be in Palestinian borders for any reason, even if asked (too much of a public relations debacle)

Fourth, tear down the walls and tell your population to take precautions. If you have to give everyone a car and stop the buses completely, then do so. The wall is a visible constant symbol of the oppression that the Palestinians feel, so as long as it is up, they will never be satisfied. Get over the silly obsession with temporary safety: this is about the long term survival of the state. If a dozen people a week have to be blown up, then so be it.

Fifth, Palestine will have to make some tough choices. I don’t care about corruption, I care more about terrorism. Fatah should take over again, with force. They need to round up anyone even remotely associated with Hamas and kill them in the open. Mothers who celebrate their son’s martyrdom should be shot on sight. Basically, they need to completely eliminate the terrorist element from within their own society. Turn the horror of suicide bombings and beheadings onto their own people, but make damn sure you’re only doing it to Hamas and other terrorists. Make sure that people understand in no uncertain terms that anyone to attacks Israel will be punished with death. And all of this must have an Arabic face. No Jew should ever be seen as helping Fatah in this endeavor, Fatah needs to do this on their own.

Sixth, while there is no right of return, Israel needs to voluntarily invite millions of Palestinians back into itself. Building mansions for them. Make sure they are living in better conditions than the average Israeli is now. In fact, give anyone who’s Muslim a mansion, or free cars, or whatever. Anything to placate them. It will show sincerity.

Seventh, because Israel is more powerful, it needs to show more remorse. Pass resolutions in its government to condemn its own creation. Trash their historical figures who was responsible for winning wars against Arabs and Muslims. Have a national holiday week devoted to the Palestinians. Consult Fatah on every foreign policy decision. Don’t just consult them though, give them a voice sometimes. Like, for ever 5 foreign policy decisions Israel makes, let Fatah make one for Israel.

Eighth, Palestinians will have to get rid of any curriculum in schools that teach about 1948 and the times around it. Just completely suppress the history. Be like Stalin. It’s gone. Anybody who speaks about it in public gets arrested. Censor everything that has to do with it. In its place, teach that the country has had “difficult times” but is progressing.

Ninth, Israel needs to give some weapons to Palestine to make it feel like a real state. Like, half the tanks, half the fighters. Take some screws out of them if it makes you feel safer, but Israel needs to arm Palestine. If there’s a war, I’m sure the Jews will still win, so I’m not worried about some mythical destruction of Israel scenario.

Tenth(and remember these are completely unreasonable things that would never happen in real life), they need to throw a massive masquerade party, get thousands of Jews and thousands of Muslims into it, spike the punch, and hope that they all get pregnant and have a ton of mixed babies so that there will be thousands of families with relatives on both sides. :smiley:

The problem is that despite the money we give, we can’t force them to stop building settlements. The only way to have peace in the Middle East is for the (U.S) to back away from the issue, militarily and financially. Israel is just not worth the cost to the U.S taxpayer. Pull the plug. We could use those billions to build highways, roads, schools, for our own people. Why do we continue to fund a country that does exactly the opposite of what we tell them to do?

I’m sure they have Dick, I’m sure they have. I mean you haven’t been able to produce so much as a single example of an Arab being murdered or expelled in the 50s/60s. I’ll just have to take this as your concession of being wrong.

You asked for evidence of the founder of Israel being an avowed ethnic cleanser, you got it.

Yes, I’m sure everybody here believes that after the mass murder/ethnic cleansing of 1948 that everything was then sweetness and light between the two sides until the ethnic cleansing restarted after those decades.

Are you seriously claiming that Ben-Gurion is the founder of Israel?? Leaving aside how you are twisting all this…seriously?

Somehow I don’t think building strawmen is really going to help your case at this point. You are, of course, free to do as you like, but honestly, only someone already convinced (such as the OP) are going to be swayed by this tactic.

-XT

Yes, yes, yes; your inability to come up with the slightest shred of evidence doesn’t mean anything. You want it to be true and thus it must be true, gotcha.

You know, I think there was massive ethnic cleansing going on in Yugoslavia all through the 50s and 60s. I mean there was all that ethnic fighting from '41-45 during WW2 and then again in the 90s when Yugoslavia broke apart. It logically only stands to reason that a super double secret campaign of ethnic cleansing happened all through the 50s and 60s, but I can’t prove it [del]because it didn’t happen and I pulled it out of my ass[/del] because there’s no information about the 50s and 60s on the internet. Or in print. Or anywhere.

Among the sorry collection of terrorists, ethnic cleansers and mass murderers generally recognised as founding Israel he generally gets top billing. He did run the country for quite a while after 1948 and you do land at his airport when you got ere. And the Israeli government foreign affairs people seem to think he was the founder too :

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/State/David+Ben-Gurion.htm

Incidentally, I don’t know what it’s called but I’m pretty sure if I flew to Belgrade tomorrow I wouldn’t be landing at Slobodan Milosevic International Airport.

I already listed one massacre in the 1950s when the Israelis took an entire village out. You must have missed that. I can find you plenty of links showing that tens of thousands of Paletinians were expelled from Israel but amazingly the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the 1950s and onwards is something that Isralelis seem shy about mentioning, so all the links are Arab websites. If I do post a link, the source of the link will immediately become the argument and not the information within. Just look at how the arguments have altered during the course of the thread. We’ve gone from “ethnic cleansing? Never!” to where we are now. I think by now most reasonable people will have decided yes, clearly those ethnic cleansing murderers will have continued to ethnically cleanse and murder long after their original massive spree, and definitely immediately after it. As the evidence I already posted shows!

The first step is to check the source, a good hint is that the word “Israeli” is inserted before his occupational agnomen, so as to lend ad hom style support to what he’s about to say. Ilan Pappe is… well… he’s not a very good cite.

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](BACKGROUNDER on Professor Ilan Pappé: When Ideology Trumps Scholarship | CAMERA)

This deserves highlighting. The 4th Geneva Convention states, clearly, that Powers can be authorized to intern Protected Persons and temporarily confiscate land if its security/military necessity is at stake. The language on that point is actually quite clear.

The joke was that the ICJ didn’t conduct any real inquiry, at all, into the military/security considerations. And yet they still arrived at a verdict. The situation was bad enough that it didn’t go unnoticed by the judges themselves. It was, laughably, shamefully, a farce and a kangaroo court.

This is fictional. Palestinian civilian-targeted terrorism was alive and well in the 1920’s, and led by a man who’d go on to ally his faction with Adolph Hitler and the Nazi program of extermination and who is still publicly hailed as a hero and role model by Palestinian leaders as recently, to my knowledge, as Arafat.

Additionally, a Palestinian state was prevented in forming in 1948 not by the Israelis, but by Jordan and Egypt. When the dust settled, it was them, not Israel, who were in control of Jerusalem and lands east as well as a good bit of land to the west of Israel proper. They deliberately and methodically prevented the formation of a Palestinian state and continued to claim the land as their sovereign territory.

At the refugee conference in Homs, 1957, the resolution was that “Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem not based on assuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason”. Nasser in '61 said “If refugees return to Israel, Israel will cease to exist.”

The PLO was formed before the Six Day War. Via Egyptian direction, and aimed at Israel. Jordan did not even give up its claims to “historic Palestine” officially until after it had already lost them for quite some time and it was looking like there might be a Palestinian coup that would remove the nascent dynasty from power.

Chronology is not unimportant.
Neither are facts.

Your alleged uncontroversial historical fact is fiction.

Mandate Palestine was not owned 100% by Arabs, let alone Muslims, let alone “The Palestinians”, whoever they were exactly in 1823, or what have you. Same goes for the roughly four centuries it spent under Turkish rule. Or the time under the Mamluks, or the Romans, or…

Talking about the situation as if all the land was owned by one group in the first place, let alone totally ignoring the distinctions between mulk and miri, is simply obfuscatory.

This too is fictional. The PA had direct control over the supermajority of Palestinians and its own armed police forces during the ‘optimistic’ stages of the peace process.

Also fictional.
The number of people who were expelled by force in '48 is, with best estimates, a fraction of those who fled because fighting was in/near their villages. You can’t really change “fled the war raging around them” with “driven out at gunpoint”.
They have a slightly different connotation, you see.

Mr. Dastardly, riddle me this: in all your claims of ethnic cleansing which go back sixty some years, why in the world is it taking so damn long? The Israelis have world-class weapons systems, the support of the US of A and a lack of give-a-damn in regards to what the rest of the world thinks of them. So why is it taking sixty some years to get rid of these pesky Palestinians? Why go so slow? Israel has every kind of weapon known to man, including nukes. They have a military that can take on every single nation around them and win without effort. They have every decisive advantage one could think of, minus support from the rest of the world which we’ve already established they don’t care about anyway. So what is taking so long when it comes to wiping out these soft targets called Palestinians? Lazy Israelis. They ethnically cleanse their Arab population the same way I clean my room. In about 200 years they might be done.

That was **inside Jordan **during a cluster-fucked cross border tit-for-tat raid. You’re being extremely disingenuous by claiming that I missed it. Here, it’s post 144 in this very thread where you quote where I already pointed this out to you and lamely tried to shift the topic of ethnic cleansing in Jaffa during the 50s which was again shown to be untrue. I mean what are you trying to do with this disingenuousness, run through the entire argument all over again?

Uh-huh. I rather think it’s the very questionable factuality of the said info that would come under scrutiny that you’re avoiding. I mean for fuck’s sake, you’ve already presented factually correct information and quotes from an Armenian genocide denier and an Israeli “New Historian” so off base that his fellow “New Historians” accuse him of making shit up and the factuality of what you cited from them was accepted. You’ve cited electronicintafata and I took you to task for misrepresenting the information provided there without even noting until now that it was on electronicintafata.

Honestly, if information from these sources remained the focus of the arguments and not the sources themselves, why are you so reticent to post this alleged information. Are they from Arab websites so extreme that they proclaim “Kill the Jews” all over the sites and thus any information would be as entirely suspect as using Stormfront as a source? Put up or shut up.

What evidence? You haven’t presented any. Your entire argument is Arabs were ethnically cleansed during the '48 war, so the Israelis must have been murdering and expelling Arabs in large numbers during the 50s and 60s. But you can’t provide any proof of this happening at all, so we should what? Blindly believe in it because you want it to be true? All this despite that the Arab population of Israelhas increased from 156,000 at the end of the '48 war to over 1,100,000 today. Color me confused, but isn’t ethnic cleansing supposed to result in the population decreasing?

Fondness for pretending to be something other than what they are. It’s a common human failing. I’m sure you understand.

Damn sneaky Israelis. They cleverly conceal their ethnic cleansing by not doing any.

Pretty good trick, that.