Disagree. Slow motion ethnic cleansing (used above) is a pretty sound description.
Like any other good Conspiracy Theory, it demands that the villains be Genius Fools.
The Israelis want to exterminate the Arabs in their sphere of influence (honest!), and they can get away with it because the rest of the world (except for a few usual suspects) has been deceived but Israelis are just really lazy and incompetent so they’re doing it in “slow motion”… whereby the population in question steadily increases year by year.
This just proves how duplicitous the Israelis are: their slow-motion-genocide results in an increase in their targeted population, every year, without fail.
Nefarious!
You just don’t realize they are in bed with the lizard aliens from V, Finn. It’s one of those blind spots you have…
-XT
That doesn’t sound very kosher.
Not only that, Islam is a harvesting tool of the Repto Sapiens.
The secret Hebrew code is here.
And this is how these threads inevitably end up, arguing with the unfortunate cases who are desperate to apologise and justify ethnic cleansing. Even sources like Israeli historians who are using actual IDF documents are rubbished, facts become fiction. Palestinians using the now-internationally recognised right of resistance become terrorists, Israeli terrorists who actually attacked women and children and made attempts to ally with the Nazis don’t get a mention. However you want to apologise and explain away mass murder ethnic cleansing I suppose is entirely up to you, but it’s a sad spectacle.
An Israeli-Arab village was inside Jordan? Who knew?
Followed by more apologies and denial of historical events. Very unpleasant indeed.
Here’s a non-Arab source detailing the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israelis in the 1950s and 60s :
Between 1948 and 1967, Palestinians who remained within the borders of the state of Israel continued to be displaced. It is estimated that by the mid-1950s the number of Palestinians displaced by Israeli authorities comprised some 15 percent of the total Palestinian population inside Israel. At least 30,000 Palestinians were expelled from Israel between 1949 and 1956 (Rempel, 2003). This included large numbers of Bedouin and internally displaced Palestinians who were forced across the de facto borders of the state of Israel into the West Bank, Gaza Strip and into Syria (Segev, 1986; Masalha, 1997). Israel expropriated over half of the land owned by Palestinian citizens…
As many as 400,000 Palestinians were displaced/expelled from the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip during the 1967 Israeli-Arab war. Half of the displaced population were refugees displaced for the first time in 1948 (Takkenberg, 1998). Few Palestinian villages were depopulated during the 1967 war. Depopulated Palestinian villages include Imwas, Yalu and Beit Nuba in the Latrun salient northwest of Jerusalem, the entire Moroccan quarter inside the Old City of Jerusalem, adjacent to the Western Wall, and the villages of Beit Marsam, Beit Awa, Jiftlik, and al-Burj as well as half the city of Qalqilya. Most of the refugees found shelter in Jordan, with smaller numbers seeking refuge in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. Displacement affected approximately 35-40 per cent of the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (Rempel, 2003).
Only those Palestinians (and their offspring) registered in Israels September 1967 census of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip were considered legal residents of the 1967 OPTs. The administrative measure effectively prevented most Palestinian refugees displaced in 1967 from voluntarily returning to their homes. The International Committee of the Red Cross did facilitate an agreement, however, between Jordan and Israel in August 1967 that established a process for the orderly return of the refugees. Out of more than 35,000 repatriation applications for some 140,000 persons, Israel only approved slightly more than 4,500 allowing less than 20,000 refugees to return to their homes. Israel rejected appeals by the ICRC to extend the time limit to enable the return of all those refugees wishing to do so (ICRC, 1970).
Military orders promulgated in the 1967 OPTs effectively applied many of the same property laws employed inside Israel. Palestinian land was expropriated under military orders dealing with ‘abandoned’ land, ‘state’ property, military use, and public purpose, among others (Benvenisti, 1984; Dajani, 2005; Lein, 2002). In the aftermath of the 1967 war Israel acquired immediate control of more than 400 sq. km of land owned by displaced i.e. absentee Palestinians. While expropriated Palestinian property held by the state is not considered inalienable, the use of land acquired under these military orders (i.e., construction of Jewish colonies, including related infrastructure such as ‘bypass roads’), suggests de facto permanent acquisition (Bisharat, 1992). JNF acquisitions are considered as the inalienable property of the Jewish people. …
Israel’s military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip has led to further displacement primarily as a result of policies that aim or result in the alteration of the demographic composition of the 1967 OPTs. Sources of displacement include revocation of residency, denial of family reunification, deportation, land confiscation, and house demolition (Akram & Rempel, 2004). It is estimated that 20,000 Palestinians were displaced annually from the West Bank and Gaza Strip between 1967 and 1986 (Kossaifi, 1996). Expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip came to a halt with the beginning of the Oslo process, however, an amendment to the 1952 Entry into Israel Law authorized the expulsion of those Palestinians who entered the 1967 OPTs ‘illegally’ or without a permit. Israel began to expel Palestinians again in the context of the second intifada. Demolition of Palestinian homes largely continued during after the signing of the Oslo agreements with the exception of homes in areas which came under PNA jurisdiction. The rate of house demolition increased dramatically in the context of the second intifada with particularly heavy impact on refugee camps (Amnesty, 2004).
http://www.forcedmigration.org/guides/fmo043/fmo043-3.htm
Slobodan Milosevic failed to remove every Croatian or Bosnian Muslim from the areas his forces ethnically cleansed, but he was nonetheless guilty of ethnic cleansing. There’s no law that says if you don’t remove every single person then you’re not guilty of ethnic cleansing. It’s astounding how far some unfortunate people will go to apologise and justify ethnic cleansing, mass murder etc.
In other words, you can’t refute his post.
If you want to discuss ethnic cleansing you have to address that fact that the Arab populations in many of the places you are pointing to is increasing and has been for some time.
Easy, the Palestinians are wisely breeding faster than the Israelis can blow them up because in addition to being pure irredeemable evil, Israel is slow.
Your reaction to a 100% accurate set of factual refutations is to try to change the subject and sling ad hom attacks, but the point you are, rather obviously, deliberately avoiding is that it’s not just some “Israeli historian” (and it is weird that you won’t stop using his nationality as some sort of ad hom medal). The point is that a known liar and admitted propagandist made claims which you take at face value and which many of us will not, for reasons that are obvious to many of us and sinister in your understanding.
It’s also quite strange that even though your facts have been shown to be fiction and your support has been cut out from under you, you are still claiming that to speak truth to you is to support ethnic cleansing.
If you check your logical proof, I’m sure you’ll see why “factual accuracy” =/= “ethnic cleansing”.
Fiction, also.
There is no such right.
In point of fact, the 4th GC is quite explicit in that an occupying Power can take downright draconian measures in order to thwart such a “right”, nor is attacking someone while they’re trying to make peace with you “resistance”, nor is deliberately targeting civilians in order to spread fear anything other than terrorism.
Bullshit generally doesn’t get much of a mention.
Yours is a typical ploy, and rather predictable.
You seek to equivocate “tried to offer the Nazis something in order to allow a percentage of European Jews to avoid being butchered.” with “ally with the Nazis”. Much like you tried to change “fled a war raging all around them” to the fiction of “driven off at gunpoint!!!”. No, the Jewish attempt to saves Jews from the Nazi program of extermination is not at all equivalent with standard military alliances, nor is it equivalent with the Mufti’s actual alliance with the Nazis for the purpose of killing Jews.
It should probably also be noted that both Hamas and Fatah in its more unguarded moments still voice open and proud demands for actual genocide and ethnic cleansing.
~shrugs~
Umm, yeah, that was kind of my point. You’ve been hinging your proof on a cross-border raid into Jordan. Was Israel trying to ethnically cleanse Jordan?
Awww, that’s so cute, you think I’m an Israeli apologist. Actually I’m not, I’m quite sure I’ve written things that didn’t enamor me with Alessan and I’ve had some… heated disagreements with FinnAgain. But what the hell though, when you can’t refute and have nothing else, *ad hominem *.
Wow, it’s like pulling teeth, but you’ve finally come up with something. Let’s see:
Funny, I thought we weren’t discussing displacement of populations during wartime, but rather:
This I am genuinely interested in and want to look into further. I’m perfectly willing to call this ethnic cleansing. The problem is though, this is from an article written by Terry Rempel and he’s citing himself from an article called * Housing and Property Restitution The Palestinian Refugee Case* in a 2003 book called Returning Home Housing and Property Restitution Rights of Refugees and Displaced Persons, which doesn’t appear to be available online, and I’m not shelling out £100.00 to find his source. While trying to find his source I did find his Who are Palestinian refugees? in which he makes no mention of these ‘49-56 expulsions - but does quote everyone’s favorite historian Ilan Pappe. The closest I’ve found is “Excluding the Negev Beduoin, it is probable that the number of Arabs kicked out of, or persuaded to leave, the country in the border-clearing operations and in the internal anti-infiltration sweeps during 1948-1950 was around 20,000. If one includes expelled northern Negev Bedouin, the total may have been as high as 30,000-40,000.” from Benny Morris’ Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited which I will grant you includes the year 1950. This still isn’t the 50s and 60s though.
On the contrary - these threads usually produce dramatic flashes of insight that open the eyes of posters who’ve previously taken refuge in stereotypes and dogma. Brilliantly innovative solutions to the Mideast crisis are proposed, to the acclaim of all concerned. There is an upsurge of optimism and the participants retire for drinks and hors d’oeuvres.
You were just unlucky this time out.
When an OP starts out with a poisoned well, it’s not hard to see where it’s ultimately headed. It’s unfortunate, in that it could be (or could have been I guess) an interesting debate…
-XT
Yeah, just the first thing with you too.
What part of Israeli-Arab don’t you understand? The village was on the Israeli side of the border.
But I’ve got to ask this. Are you seriously claiming that 20-30000 people only were kicked out? Even the Israelis admitted the number was something like 700 000.
And yet more nonsense about an Israeli historian with impeccablr academic qualifications. Sorry indeed. OK, from now on in this thread I’m just going to deal with the first bit of nonsense and leave it at that. I don’t have time to wade through all the nonsense.
And the first new bit of nonsense in this thread is that you claim the right of resistance to an occupation is fiction.
Richard Falk
(Richard Falk Albert G. Milibank Professor of International Law and Practice at Princeton University and author of Human Rights Horizons [London: Routledge, 2000])
Though the Israeli government and the US media persist in describing the second Palestinian intifada as a security crisis or a disruption to the “peace process,” in international law, Palestinian resistance to occupation is a legally protected right.
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer217/217_falk.html
I’m going with the Princeton Law Professor on this one.
This is getting surreal. Look, if you move one family from their home and transfer them somewhere else on the basis of ethnicity then you’re an ethnic cleanser. Ethnic cleansing took place on a massive scale in 1948, at a slower pace thereafter with a spike in 1967, and still continues today. Whether the population hs increased or not over the last half century is irrelevant.
Why are there more Palestinian’s in Israel today than there were in 1948 then? They make up over 20% of the population of Israel, ehe? So…if Israel has been engaging in ‘ethnic cleansing’, can you explain how there are more Palestinian’s in the area now than before they started?
-XT
I was thinking about how I phrased this and I hope it didn’t sound like I was implying** Alessan **or FinnAgain are apologists; it wasn’t my intention at all and I apologise if it sounded that way. I meant that they are sometimes more pro-Israel than I am and we’ve disagreed on things in order to point out the absurdity of Dick painting everyone who disagrees with him as an apologist.
Would you agree that roughly speaking, Israel kicked the Palestinians into 22% of the country and have kept them under a fairly unpleasant military occupation since, with ongoing, you know, transfer of some of the ones that remained somewhere else? Because that’s basically the point I was trying to make way back when. I just don’t see how that can be so controversial.