They’re near the Green Line, and they’re populated and built up enough that they would be next to impossible to evacuate.
Ariel has 16,000 people, the Gush Etzion area, including Betar Illit, 60,000, Efrat, 8000, and Ma’ale Edumim, 33,000.
They’re near the Green Line, and they’re populated and built up enough that they would be next to impossible to evacuate.
Ariel has 16,000 people, the Gush Etzion area, including Betar Illit, 60,000, Efrat, 8000, and Ma’ale Edumim, 33,000.
Some of these are nowhere near the Green Line, and in fact are deliberately slap bang in the middle of the fertile land which a viable independent state could not suvive without. The only way these settlements could remain while allowing Palestinian access to that land would be to build the wall precisely around the town limits and have a single walled road (or preferably, a tunnel) provide ingress and egress, obviously requiring a checkpoint to ensure only residents could enter and exit.
Funnily enough, Israel only considers this arrangement approriate for Palestinian settlements. US pressure on Israel to extend this arrangement to Jewish settlements - maybe even offering to pay for the walls and tunnels themselves - would be most welcome, agreed?
Maybe there were cleaning the brain matter of a three your old off of the face of his mother who survived a suicide bomb attack of on 18 year old boy who strapped explosives and shrapnel on his person and then walked into the most heavily crowded group of civilians that his handlers could find so that they could demonstrate the moral superiority of their cause. The problem being that the Palestinians who normally provide “safeguards” to protect the lives of their enemy had the day off to play mah jong.
The only one that’s nowhere near the Green Line is Ariel, and even that isn’t that far from it.
Besides, that map is a map of the July 2008 Barrier route projections, not what I’m proposing. Under my plan, there won’t be any enclaves.
Well, your plan seems more or less sound to me, as far as it goes. But what about Jerusalem? How about making it an “international city” as Jimmy Carter has proposed?
The five settlement “exceptions” you proposed – in addition to population concerns, I guess you’re excepting those areas because they’re contiguous to Jerusalem, or something? What about Palestinian access to Jerusalem? What about the Old City?
I agree with SentientMeat – the current encirclement and limited access to many Palestinian communities would have to be applied to any settler “enclaves,” if any remain.
Also, I really wish you would take back or clarify your statement in Post #134 that you “don’t care whether the Palestinians live or die.” The Doper who wrote those words seems to be very different from the Doper who just proposed a peace plan.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It’s not an international anything. Obviously, as is the policy now, Muslim and Christian religious sites will be overseen by the respective religious authorities and open.
I’m excepting those areas because they’re built up and have significant Jewish populations. If you want to evacuate Ariel, I suppose that’s possible, although I think it’ll still be a major headache. As far as those current Arab residents of Jerusalem, continue the current policy allowing them to naturalize if they want to, or remain residents if they don’t.
There won’t be any enclaves. The parts of the West Bank that are annexed will become parts of Israel, and anyone living there will be Israeli citizens. The parts not annexed will be parts of whatever Palestinian state exists.
No, I don’t see there’s any difference. A plan like the one I proposed would be good for Israel, and, by settling the Palestinian problem, would increase Israeli security and quality of life. The fact that it would also be good for the Palestinians is an added benefit. The fact that I don’t care about the Palestinians doesn’t mean that I want them to die. It means just what I said; I don’t care about them.
A tolerably clear example of how Israel brutalizes individual Jews and demeans Judaism in general. See E-Sabbath’s position favouring ethnic cleansing for more of the same. Because of the deep obligation to Israel no matter what, Judaism is past its best and the alternatives are attractive.
Heck, religion is past its best and the alternatives are attractive, but as long as there remains a sizable chunk of the human population who hates Jews simply for being Jews, I support Israel.
I wouldn’t be too put out by an independent Kurdistan, either.
Since your premise (deep obligation to Israel no matter what) isn’t true, your conclusion doesn’t follow.
But still, 6000+ years is a good run.
Once again one is amazed by the depth of your knowledge on both Israel and Judaism.
:rolleyes:
FYI, I could put up dozens of organizations both Jewish and Israeli literally pleading for peace with the Palestinians and fiercely condemning Israeli actions.
Part of the reason many Jews do not feel inclined to support the Palestinian cause unilaterally is the paucity of similar groups on the Palestinian side. Pull up a Palestinian leader or group and you are more than likely to find not calls for peace or love or brotherhood but calls for anti-semitic genocidal annihilation like that found in the very covenant of Hamas.
But Hamas are democracy-loving peace-seekers!
I read that somewhere.
I think it’s indicative of the situation when Israel is criticized for not having soldiers around to prevent Palestinians from voluntarily standing in front of an advancing bulldozer, but the Palestinians are not criticized for sniping at the bulldozer. It’s Alice in Wonderland time.
In Los Angeles, we have a pro-peace organization called Women In Black, that has members of both Jewish and Palestinian origin – but mainly Jewish, I think. Besides that, the main pro-Palestinian activists in L.A. are Jewish. It was a Los Angeles rabbi who was one of the first to file a class action against the existence of Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo, an action that would have mainly benefited Muslim prisoners if successful.
Peace Now and Americans for Peace Now are mainly Jewish pro-peace organizations. There have been plenty of examples of Palestinians and Jews working together for peace and justice. Don’t forget the Black Panthers from the 70’s, mainly Mizrahi Jews who were the first Israelis to meet with the PLO. Don’t forget Seeds of Peace, which united young Israelis and Palestinians…for a time…
I am very proud of Jews, and all people, who have spoken up for a just and humane solution to the conflict. However, the fact that Jewish peace activists have covered themselves in virtue should not be taken as an unfavorable comment on the Palestinians they are working so hard to defend. The activists themselves would object to the comparison!!!
I can’t really see how Ariel would avoid becoming an enclave. It’s right smack in the middle of the West Bank, between Nablus and Ramallah!
How broad a “corridor” do you want to give it? Too broad and you may have to take some Palestinian villages and farms. Too narrow and the Israelis may have cause to worry about security.
Would Palestinians have the right to cross the Ariel highway to travel between parts of the West Bank? If there’s a Palestinian overpass of the highway, maybe you could line it with a tall steel fence, or make it a covered bridge, to prevent anyone lobbing objects down on the Ariel highway; if there’s a Palestinian underpass, I guess you could have cameras and round-the-clock security to keep anyone from leaving explosives in the tunnel.
But the presence of Ariel, as a “sore thumb” sticking out of the West Bank, is problematic in the first place.
They were international ISM volunteers, not Palestinians. And I don’t think there was one sniper among them.
No one has yet provided a cite for there being a real danger from snipers in that approximate location, around that approximate date. Although I have asked.
As long as you annex the villages along with the farms, it’s not a problem. You just give the people in those villages Israeli citizenship or residence, and life doesn’t change that much for them.
I’m sure there’s some mechanism to make it possible.
That’s rather the point of snipers*. They don’t announce where they will be and when; a good sniper only announces he is there when he fires.
*Sniper in the military sense as opposed to any random small arms fire being described as sniper fire.
Looks like the Israelis are wrong because they weren’t psychic enough.
tclouie,
The very covenant of Hamas, an organization freely voted upon as the elected representatives has this to say about a proposed Palestinian state:
And this to say about Jews:
How is this defensible under any circumstances? What kind of idiots quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? What kind of idiots vote for people like that? A just and humane solution to many Palestinians appears to be a Judenrein Israel, something you cannot possibly expect Jews to support. For all the talk of the America and Jews siding unilaterally with the Israelis and not holding them accountable for living up to the highest of standards . . . I can’t help but notice that there seems to be very few people in the Islamic world holding Palestinians to any standards at all.
I was personally raised on the peace process. We sat there in Hebrew school spellbound as Sadat signed a peace treaty. But that peace process has to be a two way street not a dead end. In the years since then I have seen very little to make me feel much sympathy for the Palestinian cause and those who support it.
Can you understand why?
I can understand that I don’t like Hamas, as I have stated from my OP. Also, it is a common failing of democracy that people sometimes vote for stupid things, all over the world, including America and Europe. That doesn’t discredit democracy in general, nor the people who practice it.
Nevertheless, I disagree with the PA’s method of dealing with Hamas, with repression, mass jailings and sometimes killings. I think extremist movements should be dealt with by improving material conditions and showing everybody the benefits of moderation, not by “feeding the fire.” Human rights are funny that way: they require respect for the rights even of the most hateful man on earth. (Yes, I would read Hitler his rights and let him have a lawyer.)
Are you lumping the West Bank Palestinians in with your condemnation? It wasn’t the West Bank vote that elected Hamas.