I’m not talking about the entire world, I’m talking about Palestine. If they think dancing in the streets after mass-murder is going to win them friends, they’ve just blown it big time.
I’m not talking about blaming the media for perceptions. I know what happens when you show part of the story. But I also know that * something need to be done by Palestinians in Palestine to counteract the inhuman celebrations of those dancers*
No whining, no “blame the media”, just get their asses out and show that you aren’t a bunch of freaks joyfully.
celebrating the deaths of tens of thousands
The ball is not in our court for preceptions. Palestine can keep on dancing if it really feels that way.
Just don’t tell me later on that I should feel sorry for them in the slightest way.
:rolleyes:As an anti-American, anti-ZOG, pro-Muslim pro-violence advocate, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. :rolleyes:
Israel has always been the US’ “best ally”. Support for Palestine has never been a real issue, and certainly couldn’t have been if a handful of overexuberant refugees was enough to kill it.
[Molt] Shutting up! [/Molt]
Oh, it’s not like electing Sharon didn’t indicate a harder line. And speaking as a member of the American public, I cordially invite you to watch the palms of my hands as intently as possible. I want you to tell me if and when they actually touch in a positive response to Israel’s actions.
You make it sound so simple… how can I learn to stop thinking like you have?
The Israelis always have been the allies of the US, you have NO damn proof of any Palestinian connection to the attacks in New York and Washington - at least none that isn’t grounded in knee-jerk Zionism - and the US has never helped the Palestinians in any positive way. The peace proposals weren’t designed for justice, they were designed for quiet. In Israel’s favor.
It really must be so nice to not have to worry about deeper considerations, just going with what is. I really wish I could do that.
You sure it’s not irrelevant? You’ve been spouting it throughout this whole post.
Whether you wish it that strongly or not, they are not. They don’t need US support to fight for their homes, while Israel relies almost solely on the US to maintain itself. The minute the US shuts off aid to Israel it’ll crumble fast. And the Palestinians will still be there.
Usage of the word genocide was not consistent through your post. I edited to make it more consistent with words like “warmaking.” Sorry, I won’t do it again.
In view of events, any action or inaction serves one side or the other. Say one side is fighting and the other is not. If we act, we help those who don’t; if we are effectively aiding those who do. Say one side is fighting to gain land, and the other is fighting to resist. If we act for peace alone we seek to aid those who defend; if we act for a diplomatic reassessment of whose land it should be we aid those who fight to gain it. There is no easy out. I think this is obvious, but you continue to resist. Very well. Explain to me why any solution would not involve an abandonment of ethics on either side of the factions, and how we can obtain a resolution without taking sides.
As far as not seeing this as a battle of ethics, I won’t try and convince you. You’ve got genocide on the brain which is obviously not a matter of ethics, so I can see why you would disagree. :rolleyes:
It is not democratic to deny self-determination to a large portion of your subject population, nor to consistently base state policy on ethnic discrimination. Israel is not a democracy, much less the only one in the region.
It seems to me that Arafat’s public statement (looking “kicked in the stomach” like we all did yesterday), as well as the many anecdotes that have been posted on these boards telling about Palestinians who were upset/crying/embarrassed, would constitute “doing something.” If you choose to filter your perceptions and strain out whatever doesn’t fit your prejudices, there’s nothing anybody could do about that.
The ball is always in your court when it comes to your perceptions, because only you are responsible for them. And, “Palestine” did not dance. This is lumping and scapegoating.
Anyway, I thought the purpose of these boards was to fight ignorance with knowledge, not “perceptions.” I understand that people want to vent, but after a while it does us no good for people to keep saying, “Yeah, I know I could be wrong, but that’s how I feel” without ever moving on to a more rational level. That is a terrible basis for making decisions about policy, and war, and life and death. Please do not defend your right to be ignorant in this ignorance-fighting forum.
Interesting how nobody has challenged me concerning what the settlers and the troops do in the occupied territories.
I may be biased, but I think the pro-Palestinian side has won the debate in this thread on grounds of rationality and evidence. The anti-Palestinian side has mostly said either “I don’t care if they’re oppressed, they look bad and guilty!”, or said, “They really ARE that bad, all of them!”
Sayonara. Mod, the OP requests that you shut this one down.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Authorities in Massachusetts have identified five Arab men as suspects in Tuesday's attack on New York City and have seized a rental car containing Arabic-language flight training manuals at Logan International Airport, a source told the Boston Herald newspaper.
Two of the men were brothers whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, the unidentified source told the Herald. One of the men was a trained pilot, the paper reported on its Web site on Wednesday.
I’ll do a longer search later and post more details
RE-Lemur I believe he was speaking in terms of US perception. Many Americans WILL blame the Palestinians, rightly or wrongly. This perception will shape US policy, resulting in the events Lemur descibed.
RE Genocide-The PLO and other organisations have stated in no uncertain terms their desire to kill all Israelis. The Israeli government wants either peace or to move all Palestinians out of the country. It does not want to exterminate them. The deal Arafat turned down is not something you offer a people you plan to massacre.
So in other words those Palestinians who were dancing in the streets had reasons for hating all Americans. No doubt. If a Palestinian child were shot dead by the Israelis, and an American reacted by saying “Yippee! That’s one less towelhead to deal with!” then I think we could reasonably say that American was expressing hatred for Palestinians in general (and not, say, a policy disagreement with Yasser Arafat’s administration of the Palestinian Authority). We could further generalize that any American who expressed such a sentiment harbors a hatred of all Palestinians. Such an American might well have a reason for such hatred; it might be a good reason or a bad reason. (I tend to think almost any reason for hating an entire nation is probably a bad one.) Maybe that American was beaten up all the time by Palestinian kids when he was little. Maybe God Himself told that American that all Palestinians are in fact the spawn of Satan. Maybe that American thinks he was told that by God. But, whatever the reason for the hatred, the fact of the hatred is undeniable.
Well, I suppose I can imagine situations where I might understand if not condone hatred of an entire ethnic group or nationality by someone. A survivor of the Bataan death march or the Burmese P.O.W. labor camps might hate all Japanese, for example. However much we understood or condoned or understood but failed to condone the hatred, it would be pretty pointless to deny its existence, if, for example, our hypothetical P.O.W. reacted to the Kobe earthquake by celebrating.
It was certainly expressive of generalized anti-American sentiment on the part of the Palestinians who were dancing in the streets.
Can you even agree that the Palestinians who danced in the streets over this expressed generalized hatred of Americans? Not all Palestinians, just the ones dancing in the streets. And not whether or not they had “reasons” to hate all Americans; just, the basic fact that those particular people do hate Americans.
I would be very surprised if a Palestinian group was behind this. But I would not be surprised if some other Islamic group was behind it, current news says that some of the people involved were Saudi and Egyptian.
And it isn’t the dancing that ruined the Palestinians. Far from it. Even if every single one had condemned the bombings, it wouldn’t matter. They are hardly likely to stop the attacks on Israel, are they? Of course they won’t stop. Even if the attacks are not connected via the network of terrorist organisations throughout the middle east, the attacks are analgous. But how will the American public view these attacks on Israel, in light of yesterday’s attacks?
Before yesterday, many Americans would be concerned about disproportiate Israeli responses. They would have some sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians. They would counsel the Israelis that revenge is unwarranted.
But now that is over. Not because the Palestinians were behind this, or because they danced with joy because of it. But because American attitudes towards suicide bombers and terrorists have taken a decided negative turn. Don’t you think that the IRA would have a lot more trouble getting funding nowadays? All terrorist organizations are in trouble, regardless of whether they had anything to do with the bombings.
This bombing is the worst possible thing that could happen to the Palestinian cause. They haven’t been able to fight back against Israel conventionally, so they have chosen terrorism. But Americans are going to be much less appreciative of alternative methods of warfare for quite some time.
We’ve declared war on terrorism… NOT just on those responsible.
Even if the Palestinians ha absolutely nothing to do with this they do indeed have elements among them which engage in terrorist acts against other nations. That puts them in a pretty bad spot.
Didn’t the Arab nations attack Israel in 1967 with the intention of destroying them? Didn’t the Israelis fight back, winning some territory in the process? Why do the Palestinians have a “right” to that land? They started the war, and lost. [/hijack]
Well, thank you so much for clarifying our stance, Lemur. I really, truly appreciate it. And here I thought I was just interested in blaming the correct parties for the events of Tuesday. Hmm.
Gee. That’s really swell of you, since you seemed so hell-bent on putting us into our niche just previous to saying so.
I’d just like to remind you, and all those like you who seem to have so many problems with this ‘ostensibly’ pro-Palestinian thread that terrorism has several purposes. The first and foremost of these is, of course, to cause terror and demoralization. The second is to cause divisiveness, and exactly the kind of knee-jerk, idiotic, bigoted reaction that you are displaying. I can’t say I appreciate you accusing me of being anti-American, etc, ad nauseum. Right now I still have this sick feeling of anger, fear, resentment and sorrow churning in my gut, from seeing all that happened on Tuesday. I really want to get the monsters that did this to our country, and our people. I’d like to think that this was motivated by the sense of justice instilled in me by growing up in our great country. But apparently you would rather just kill 'em all and let God sort them out. Great plan. But seeing as “Right and wrong are irrelevant”, I would pretty much rank you in the same class of thought as the people who would be willing to do this kind of thing in the first place. The kind of person who doesn’t care who gets hurt, as long as they can put a convenient label on them first, to salve what’s left of their conscience.
As we have seen from so many of the posts here today, there are many Palestinian people who were just as shocked and appaled at this attack as we were. FYI, many of them are normal people, just trying to live their lives, just like the rest of us. But the mentality required to be glad that a group of people will suffer is exactly the mindset required to inspire, direct, and commit terrorism in the first place. And the more divisive we are between countries, religions, colors of skin, etc., the more effective and efficient tool terrorism will be in our world. I we can put a label on people, and treat them as faceless, nameless ‘evils’…whether that label is “Palestinian”…“American”…“Iraqi”…“Muslim”…doesn’t matter. As long as there are people willing to take that mindset, there will be terrorists, and hate crimes. So try putting names, faces, LIVES alongside the visions you’re having of Palestinians, Lemur. According to the tenets of the country /I/ live in, they’re allowed to think whatever they want. As much as I might disagree with and be disgusted with the reaction of dancing in the streets, I have to respect their right to do so…until they actually commit a crime against me, or my fellow citizens.
Those are the tenets that this country claims to be founded on. Stop hating the labels. Catch the monsters responsible for the crimes. Stop the GOVERNMENTS that are willing to support them. But don’t kill the civilians. That just makes you a terrorist.
Are you even listening? I have tried to make the point again and again that there is a stark difference between hating the United States and hating Americans. I do not believe the Palestinians who danced in the streets hate Americans. I believe they hate the United States for its role in Palestinian oppression, and I believe they know the bloody difference between hating a country for its actions and hating the citizens of that country.
You’re looking for an excuse to further demonize the Palestinians, you’ve got one straw to grasp at, and by YHWH you’re gonna hold on to it, it seems.
No, they only hate american new yorkers who worked in the WTC buildings and tourists who would marvel at something so evil as the products of our capitalism :rolleyes:
Perhaps I miss seeing celebrating an attack on american citizens as anything other than hating american citizens.
I believe I read it at the New York Times website. Yasser Arafat himself and hundreds of other Palestinians donated blood to be delivered to the U.S. Embassy.
If this demonstration had spontaneously erupted in a region dominated by peace and otherwise harmonious relations between the inhabitants and the United States, I might concede the point. But that’s not the case, now is it? There is a lot of hatred of the United States among Palestinians precisely because they have backed Israel to the hilt for the last 30 years, at least. It was not a celebration of an attack on American citizens, it was an outpouring of irrational exuberance over the fact that the country they had previously seen as the invincible bully finally proved not to be.
I would certainly like to know if any of those Palestinians were specifically asked how they felt about the deaths of the estimated 50,000 people in the buildings rather than how they felt about the attack in general, which is probably where all the “Great Satan” rhetoric mentioned earlier came from.
quote:
Didn’t the Arab nations attack Israel in 1967 with the intention of destroying them? Didn’t the Israelis fight back, winning some territory in the process? Why do the Palestinians have a “right” to that land? They started the war, and lost.
Well said.
Next:
The Palestinians did not “leave” Israel, many of them were driven out against their will. Unlike a Jewish immigrant to Israel, the Palestinians never had any desire to leave or be “taken in” by another country. They have always considered that they are in their own country. There is a big difference.
I disagree. Many DID leave Israel. They were allowed to live there like other Arabs still do, as legal citizens. And it wasn’t about not having a desire to be taken in by another country – it was clearly the neighboring Arab states refusing to let them stay as full citizens.
Remember the lost tribe of black Jews found in Ethiopia in the 1980’s? How they were all welcome into Israel? Israel does open its arms to its brothers while allowing even those who hate it to have access to its land and holy sites. And once again, I refer to the opportunity given to the Palestinians that Arafat ignored. Not the actions of people who truly want peace.
Israel is no more a desert than Los Angeles. Both areas are considered to have Mediterranean climates. Not to denigrate the accomplishments of the kibbutzim and drip-irrigation, but there has always been cultivation and orchards in Israel/Palestine. Many of the Palestinian families who had their fruit trees chopped down by Israeli troops had been cultivating those trees for generations.
Israel is certainly more of a desert than Los Angeles is. I’ve visited one and live in the other, and there’s a significant climate difference between the two. While Israel might be less extreme than the Sinai, it ain’t particularly wet. The region requires work to grow food in, and it’s far from the only arable land in the region.
When the Palestinians come up with a fair plan to share the land, a plan like the Israelis proposed last year, then they can say they truly attempted coexistance.
Also, for those who think the Israelis are extreme in their reactions, I think it’s very clear why they act that way. Look at NY, and imagine what could have been prevented had we acted as harshly against all the countries that sponsor terrorism? Specifically Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Playing “leave them alone” obviously doesn’t deter them worth a damn.
Well, that’s the whole point of terror, no matter who commits it, isn’t it?!
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were attacks on Japanese citizens. Dresden was an attack on German citizens. You can’t tell me nobody in the United States didn’t celebrate those specific acts, what with the anti-Japanese and anti-German propaganda that permeated the country at the time. Yes, I know they were in time of war, but obviously the terrorists behind these atrocious acts feel they are at war with the United States, don’t they? McVeigh certainly did.
Again, I reiterate: The dancing in the streets, while particularly stupid, demonstrates only a hatred of the United States as an entity rather than a direct hatred of American citizens and a celebration of their deaths.
Please cite the Israeli policy that provides for ethnic discrimination. Also, what are the other democracies in the region? Egypt? Hell, how you get to power doesn’t matter, remember the Nazi party won an election in Germany. Also, I must ask, would you be willing to allow a huge amount of OBL’s friends to move into the US? I mean given their goal is to kill Americans, I suppose that we should just let them in and give free run?