pro-Palestinian thread

Great Debates
81

This is the biggest, most deliberate act of evasion I have ever seen, Olen. It saddens me greatly.

FACT: Thousands of American citizens were killed.
FACT: Some people were rejoicing in this.
Conclusion: these who rejoiced hated these American citizens, and quite possibly all American citizens.

There is no amount of twisting you can put on these two facts to come to any other conclusion. We may speculate freely that they hated these Americans, and by extension all Americans, for our way of life and thus truly hated America… but you cannot celebrate the death of innocent civilians and not hate them. In any way.

82

American citizens are continuing to subsidize the Israeli war effort against the Palestinians. How can one possibly distinguish the entity and its agents who perpetrate the Palestinians’ perceived harm?

83

You got a tautology in there, erislover. “Rejoicing in this” is a restatement of the conclusion in your premise. You have not proved that they were rejoicing in the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans except by stating that they rejoiced after the news broke in Palestine. If there were not the long history of US support for Israel against the Palestinians, then the only possible explanation would be an irrational Palestinian hatred of all Americans. This is not so.

The celebration was shameful. But it did not spring from a hatred for all Americans.

84

It is not a tautology, man. Its a causal fucking relationship, get it? Deaths of civilians == rejoicing.

It was not mean to be a syllogism.

85

Same way we can distinguish between Iraqi, Iranian, and Turkish citizens, and the governments that continue in the persecution of the Kurds. Same way we can distiguish between Afghani citizens and the ruling militia that renews the oppression of women and destroys ‘idolatrous’ statues. Governments that are to a greater or lesser degree unaccountable to their citizens do all sorts of things that are horrific and sickening. That doesn’t mean every last citizen is to blame. How am I to blame for a government that levies taxes on my income to function, then uses that tax to fund a war effort in another country, despite my misgivings about doing so?

I think it does the Palestinians no credit to assert that they are incapable of understanding that a foreign government is to blame for the situation at home, but the citizens of that country are not.

86

No, it isn’t. If it were a causal relationship, there should have been other places where celebration erupted. Like Baghdad. Or Kabul. Or the Sudan (remember the pharmaceutical factory?).

Didn’t happen elsewhere. Therefore it is not a causal relationship.

Get it?

87

The above governments do not even pretend to represent their citizens in any way whatsoever. Furthermore, the degree to which impoverished Iraqi and Afghani citizens can subsidize their government is a matter of some debate.

The American government, on the other hand, is representative. Americans are rich enough to support their own government.

Hence I would repeat the question. Your counterexamples demonstrate why we shouldn’t hate the citizens of Iraq, Turkey, and Afghanistan, but the conditions that apply to them manifestly do not apply to us.

88

Hmmm… not aware of great numbers of Palestinians residing in Baghdad or Kabul or Sudan.

As for it happening elsewhere, I was pretty sure I saw some very happy muslims in Pakistan on the news yesterday. No footage of Sadam’s folks doing the hustle or of the Taliban shuffle but I’d bet all the money in your bank account that there were some dances breaking out all over those regions.

Get it?

Oh, and for all of us lowbrow semi-intellectuals, please be kind enough to distinguish between celebration of “Assault on America” and “Assault on Americans”. I wasn’t aware that you could have one without the other.

Perhaps what we are missing here is more “context”!

89

Olentzero and Erislover

Fact: A number of Palestinians were rejoycing as a result of a number of supposed terrorist attacks on the United States.

That’s it. That’s the fact. Why specifically were they celebrating? Who knows. Speculation. Maybe they all weren’t celebrating the same thing. Were they celebrating the exposition of the vulnerability of the United States? Were they celebrating on a more basic level the death and destruction caused in the US, perhaps motivated by vengance and a feeling of oppression? No way to know. It’s as rediculous to assert one of those opinions as fact than then other.

I would tend to assume that the answer is closer to the latter than the former. How a person could suggest that they could throw a party after the deaths of thousands of innocent (yes, innocent, despite being citizens of an oppressor state, as they may see us) instead of a memorial service, and not be spitting in the eyes of the dead, wounded, and their families is beyond me. But then, that’s just my opinion.

90

Every government claims to represent the will of its populace. Whether it actually does, however, is another question. But they make the claim nonetheless.

I don’t see any Socialists in Congress. Nor do I see the number of political parties on the national arena here that I see in countries like Germany, or France, on Sweden. They have at least three or four. We have two, plus ‘independents’. We don’t even have a Labor party, for chrissake.

The question of supporting a government is not one of the citizens being rich enough, but rather of the government being able to generate enough revenue, primarily from taxes, to function. Taxes are taken from everyone, rich or poor.

They do indeed. The US government barely holds itself accountable to the population as a whole, and American citizens should not be held accountable for every foreign policy action their government takes.

91

:rolleyes: Were you born this obtuse or have you been practicing? I meant, of course, that if there were a causal relationship between the attacks and the rejoicing, other places that could potentially have strong anti-American stances in the general populace would have had the same thing occur.

“Pretty sure” ain’t gonna cut it. Give me cites. Links. Evidence. Proof.

Get it?

I’ll thank you to kindly keep your perceived generalizations to yourself. I may disagree strongly with erislover and Maeglin, but I do not think any less of their intellects because of it.

I’ve been trying to, which is why I’ve stayed in this thread so long. Celebrating the deaths of thousands of Americans would spring from a hatred of American citizens. Which is not what the Palestinians feel. Celebrating an assault on America comes from hatred of the US as the geopolitical entity whose policy towards Palestine has been one of oppression and displacement through its intermediary, Israel.

92

Has anyone else heard this? I have also heard vague reports of arrests/disciplinary action against some of the celebrants, but haven’t seen any concrete sources for that. While I haven’t formed any strong opinions on Israel v. Palestine, I did feel sympathy for Arafat during his interview. He looked very, very, frightened. And with good cause.

93

(Bolding mine)

On what do you base this statement? Not that I’m saying your guess must be wrong, but is it that unheard of for people to rejoice in the deaths of others? I think that happens a lot. What makes you so sure those feelings aren’t being expressed now? Is it because you “know” the Palestinians are good people who would not feel that way? News for you, but there are people in all nationalities/religions/races/towns/cities/families/whatever who are completely capable of feeling good about someone else’s death. It’s nice that you’d like to absolve the Palestinians from ownership of this quality, but that is far outside the realm of you power.

94

OK, try this, from Birzeit University

[sub](Birzeit University is the major Palestinian University in the West Bank).[/sub]

95

Eonwe, that whole paragraph you quoted explains my reasoning behind why I don’t believe the Palestinians hate Americans as a whole - and it’s not out of some wishful desire that people might be better than they are. There’s a material reason for Palestinians’ hatred towards the US, which is not the same as hatred towards Americans.

96

Palestinian Authority threatens camera crews covering celebrations

Special to World Tribune.com

MIDDLE EAST NEWSLINE
Thursday, September 13, 2001
RAMALLAH — The Palestinian Authority has muzzled coverage of Palestinian celebrations of the Islamic suicide attacks against the United States.

Palestinian sources said PA officials stopped several television crews from broadcasting Palestinian celebrations of the suicide jet crashes in New York and Washington. They said PA Information Minister Yasser Abbed Rabbo and his aides telephoned foreign broadcast crews and said the PA would not be able to guarantee their safety if the footage is broadcast.

The sources said Fatah agents loyal to PA Chairman Yasser Arafat warned Palestinian cameramen to either hand over their videotape or refuse to relay footage of Palestinian celebrations for international broadcast.

The result, the sources said, is that virtually all television crews failed to broadcast the tape of the celebrations. They said this includes PA officers and Fatah gunmen in the West Bank firing in the air to celebrate the kamikaze attacks. The wildest celebrations were reported in Nablus.

In Ramallah, Fatah gunmen captured a Palestinian television cameraman who worked for a major news agency. The gunmen warned he would be killed if the footage filmed of Palestinian celebrations is aired.

For his part, Arafat has expressed outrage over the attacks. On Wednesday, Arafat donated blood for the victims of the U.S. suicide missions.

At the same time, Abbed Rabbo appealed to Palestinians not to publicly display happiness over the attacks in the United States. The information minister told PA radio that such expressions would harm Palestinian interests.

Television journalists refused to publicly acknowledge the pressure. They said most of the Palestinian celebrations were broadcast.

“We are doing our work as well as we should,” Connie Mus, a former chairman of the Foreign Press Association, said.

97

When I saw the video of the people dancing in the streets, I was immediately reminded of the horrible picture of the Palestinian man who covered his hands in the blood of an Israeli police officer, and then thrust them out the window to the adoration of the mob below. An absolutely despicable act, much as the cheering done after the WTC.

I am not going to get involved in a debate over the Palestinian problem, or who is right or wrong Israel or Palestine. The only point I wish to make is that Palestine bears a responsibility for any cowardly despicable acts committed in their name. Terrorism committed against the U.S. or Israel is, if not seen as laudable, is at least tolerated by those in power in Palestine and the people themselves. By creating and allowing this kind of atmosphere, they cannot wash themselves of responsibility for a terrorist act committed against their enemy.

98

It is not democratic to deny self-determination to a large portion of your subject population, nor to consistently base state policy on ethnic discrimination. Israel is not a democracy, much less the only one in the region.

Don’t you see that this is a key example of a democratic state that is under constant threat of terrorism? They are desperately trying to prevent what happened in NY, and that, in a country as small and surrounded by enemies as Israel is, means they have no choice but to show constant strength and vigil.

The Palestinians – and I’ve said this before – lost ALL their rights to complain and fight when they turned down an overly-generous peace-for-land offer that inlcuded a chunk of Jersualem. Shit, can you imagine the US giving up part of Washington DC as a peace parcel to a group of Native Americans? That’s exactly what Israel did.

But the Palestinians said no, they’d rather bomb people. So fuck 'em. When they are SERIOUS about a genuine peace and coexistance, I’ll start taking their self-imposed suffering seriously again, too.

By the way, after the past… what, 9 years of relative peace? Had they continued without their violent attacks, had they continued living in their areas and crossing borders to work in Israel, etc… there’d surely be a peace treaty by now. And things would improve over time as the peace continued to last and as Palestinians and Israels got to know each other as individuals over the years.

99

I was beaten to the punch. The World Tribune link is here.

Olenztero, I do respect you, but I think yours is a sinking ship with respect to this issue.

100

Olentzero,
I’m not trying to be deaf to what you are saying, but I’m still not following your logic. I assume the part of that paragraph that most clearly explains your reasoning is:

“Celebrating an assault on America comes from hatred of the US as the geopolitical entity whose policy towards Palestine has been one of oppression and displacement through its intermediary, Israel.”

Fine. I will accept that statement as fact. No questions asked. But (of course, you saw that comming :slight_smile: ) the step you are missing between point A and point B is this: how do you know the celebration is about an “assault on America” and not about “a successful killing of Americans”? To be honest, I’m still having trouble wraping my mind around the difference.

The above quote makes perfect sense, but I don’t know how you know that is the reason for the celebration. I’ll agree there’s a “material reason” for some Palestinians hatred, but that could manifest itself as hatred against our government or our people, or both.

My question to you that would clear this up for me would be this: How do you know that those specific Palestinians who were cheering the destruction of to World Trade Center were not at all joyous that civilian Americans died in the attack?