pro-Palestinian thread

Great Debates
101

Nice trick, Olentzero.

Of course, a marxist like yourself would claim that the US isn’t a real representative government. If it were, then the US would be socialist, of course!

Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps the vast majority of Americans are NOT socialist? Put aside whether they SHOULD be socialists, do you agree that the vast majority are not now socialist?

The American system of goverment, like that of all our western allies, derives from the consent of the governed. That doesn’t mean that the government must always and in every possible way follow your viewpoint. You probably weren’t happy when Bush was elected (or maybe you didn’t care). I wasn’t happy when Clinton was elected. In every election, there are going to be some winners and some losers. But, the government is representative nonetheless.

If you cannot distinguish between a representative democracy where government action derives from the people, where there are guarantees of freedom of speech even for Marxists like yourself, and dictatorships where all political power inheres in one person, then we have such widely diverging world views that I doubt further conversation would be usefull.

If the Palestinians were celebrating an attack on America, well, there is no way to attack America without attacking Americans. Whether you agree or not, America IS Americans. It is not a place, it is not a government, it is a people. Attacking one is the same as attacking the other. So stop your dodging. The Palestinians celebrated an attack on Americans. Maybe you could argue they were justified in hating America/Americans, but you cannot argue that they do not.

And of course the leadership realizes that is is horrible news for Palestine, even though they almost certainly were not responsible. In a war on terrorism all terrorists will be targeted, not just those who carried out this particular attack.

102

To be honest, I guess I actually don’t. Especially after picking up a couple of the news items in Yahoo.

The larger problem here is, however, that this one instance (which I state again I do not defend in the least) is being used as ammunition against the Palestinians and their cause in general.

Every peace deal that has been brokered is nothing more than a legitimization of the 1948 occupation of Palestine. Every scrap of resistance the Palestinians have put up has been pointed at and used to say “See? The Palestinians are an unruly mob. We shouldn’t have to put up with them. They’re not really interested in peace like we are.” So the situation gets worse for them, they fight back some more, and the latest round of attacks gets used to justify further repression. And so on, and so forth.

This is the whole reason I kept up this line of argument. The celebrations in Nablus and elsewhere are being used to paint all Palestinians as irrational American-hating fanatics, which they are not, and to further deny the legitimacy of their grievances against Israel and the United States.

I do not support the path of terror many Palestinian organizations have chosen in their fight against Israeli oppression. But I do support their struggles and their claims, which I believe are just.

That’s about it from my end of things. I’m done with this debate now.

103

How about those of us who think both the Israeli and Palestinian governments are f’d up and should be sent to their rooms without supper? Just because someone can see something from a certain perspective doesn’t mean they endorse it.

Gosh, how nice. :rolleyes: Too bad it doesn’t remove the tar you broadbrushed everyone with already.

104

I came to this conclusion weeks ago. Thereby proving the superiority of the dialectical materialist approach.

105

Well, thanks for responding to me in a civilized fashion. I hesitate to post to some of the debates currently in progress because there’s a lot of anger and emotion taking the place of reason even in the hallowed halls of Great Debates.
I understand and share your concern about blame and hatred falling upon all Palestinians. And, not feeling like this is the time or place to get into the particular discussion about the rights and wrongs of the formation if Israel and all the events following, I will just say that hopefully we all will come out of this better people than when we began (all of us, left, right, Palestinian, American, Israeli, blah blah blah, everyone).

106

Following up on one of Mandelstam’s points: We seem to be assuming that those Palestinians celebrating in the streets had accurate and specific knowledge of the events that had transpired at the time of their celebration. Who’s to say they knew the extent of the tragedy, or even the fact that civilian casualties or hijacked passenger planes were involved? To base our reaction about their celebration on what we know of the events doesn’t seem wholly supported, given that a) each nation’s media distills information in a way which is judged–depending on the character of the nation–either of most interest to its citizens, in the best interests of the nation itself, or both (example: how many people here know that we’ve been bombing Iraq pretty much non-stop for the last ten years, and that some of the bombs have almost assuredly fallen on civilian sectors?); and b) people can’t be relied upon to hear or interpret information accurately, even assuming that it is relayed in full. I just wouldn’t necessarily presume that each one of those dancing Palestinians were actually celebrating the mass murder of American civilians, rather than some vaguer (or even less accurate) event that they heard had happened–“an action against the United States,” for example, or “a strike on America’s military center.”

It’s my opinion that we’re being a bit o’erhasty in filling in blanks and ascribing sentiments, is all.

107

Nice angle, Gadarene. I hadn’t thought of that myself.

108

:rolleyes: You’re special gift is bringing out the worst in me. :rolleyes:

I just told you that it did occur in other places. Pakistan for one. Saw it last night on a special broadcast on Channel 13 (DC COX Cable). It was a news show anchored by a young Pakistani woman, most likely broadcasting from this area, using recent footage from Pakistan. I’d try to track down the tape but I’m not inclined to go through the trouble.

That’s as close to a terrorist appologist line of thought as I’ve ever seen.

"But we don't hate the Ameeeeeericans. We just hate
 what they staaaaaaand for."

Yup. Tossing teddy is a most effective debating techniques. :rolleyes:

Ah, yes! The distict sound of one hand clapping.

109

Obviously. Your post, quoted herein, is nothing but obtuseness.

Any other sources besides an apparently half-remembered TV show?

Are you reading any of my previous posts or are you just choosing to ignore the multiple times I’ve said “I do not defend what they did”?

You really aren’t reading my posts. If you’ll take careful note, I actually admitted I couldn’t back up my specific position on the celebrations. I restated the reasons for my arguing in this thread, and concluded by trying to say I had nothing else to offer. I dunno, maybe I’m wrong on this count too.

erislover, Maeglin, Eonwe - what you guys say? Am I throwing a tantrum 'cos I’m not winning?

Strap on yer learning caps, folks! It’s time for “Lessons for the Humor-Impaired”. Today’s lesson: Zingers.

110

Let’s see.
We’ve got this Olentzero character saying that the occupation started in 1948. Which means, I suppose, that we should push all those pesky Jews (sorry, Zionists, right?) into the sea.
The Palestinians hate not Americans but only what our government does. Which is why they celebrate a massacre of civilians.
We should remember two things:
a) Barak offered them a compromise which would easily have gotten him ousted had Arafat agreed to it.
b) What started the latest rebellion was Sharon visiting the holiest place in Judaism. For having the unmitigated gall to practice his religion in public, the Palestinians started this revolt.
As Americans, for having the unmitigated gall to devoting our lives to making a brighter future for ourselves and our children, we are massacred.
Sorry, I’m not buying.
The best part of this is having characters like Olentzero around to remind us of just how precious common decency is.

111

Here, FWIW, are excerpts from and a link to an editorial published in The Nation by a professor of political theory at an Israeli University. (I suspect it was written prior to recent events even though it appears in the most recent issue.)

"What, one should ask, has Sharon accomplished since taking office? He has attacked Nablus with Apache helicopters and Gaza with F-16 fighter jets, dropping one-ton bombs on buildings in the center of Gaza City. Tank and infantry units have entered Beit Jala and Jenin, and Israeli death squads operate regularly in Tulkarm, Hebron and Ramallah; at least forty-two people have been killed during assassinations. Moreover, Palestinians have been under siege for months, and their economy has all but collapsed, leaving thousands to cope with grinding poverty. The extensive restrictions on freedom of movement have not only prevented Palestinians from reaching hospitals and work but have also cut off access to drinking water in 218 West Bank villages.

The Sharon government has carried out all these actions and many others in order to quell the Palestinian uprising, that is, the Palestinians’ struggle for independence. Meanwhile, the United States has reacted with little more than a murmur of protest, often giving Israel a green light to employ disproportionate force. It has actually obstructed many of the attempts to restrain Israeli violence, most recently during the August 20-21 United Nations Security Council meetings."

He goes on to explain that efforts to involve the UN as a peacekeeper have been thwarted.

Source:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010917&s=gordon

FTR, I consider myself to be pro-Israel and pro-Palestine as, I suspect, does the author of this editorial.

112

Palestinians - and their supporters - had the choice, ages ago, of a non-violent resistance along the lines of Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr, or of taking the path of violence.

They chose violence.

Yes, violence begets violence. Let’s be clear: these are religious fanatics we’re dealing with. They don’t say: get all the Zionists. They say, as one Palestinian shouted before massacring as many Israelis as he could, “Kill the Jews!”
Which is all they’re really interested in. If they were interested in anything else, anything at all, they would have compromised a long, long, long, long time ago.
The Israeli left has had it almost as much as the Israeli right. This is not because of bigotry, or ignorance, or anything else.
It’s because of experience.

113

American bombing raids on Iraq are routinely reported by the American news media, along with reports from Iraq of civilian casualties.

114

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/09/12/arafat/index.html

115

A kind of disjointed post, but I am tired and drained.

Ya know, I’m pro-Israeli. But, as a bleeding heart American liberal, I pain myself to see the Palestinian point of view. I firmly believe that they should have a state, that there should try to be peaceful coexistence in the region, that they have the right to self governance and self determination. As I have said elsewhere, this should not come at the expense of the Israeli people, who have an equal right to self determination and governance. I believe that the Palestinians are suffering in the West Bank and Gaza, and that their leadership has only made it worse in the past year.

These demonstrations make me wonder. If Arafat allows street demonstrations, does he have a popular mandate for peace? Or, if he can control the demonstrations, is he even trying to make peace? I don’t know which way is worse. I believe that the majority of Palestinians, like the majority of Israelis, just want to live without fear of being blown up or shot. But, with no direct guidance and no promotion of peace, more and more are being swept away by extremism. It is such extremism that leads to the street demonstrations and bombings, which only leads to recrimination and further extremism. A vicious cycle is created.

Extremism and fundamentalism of any kind are a bad thing. In Israel, there is a free press, a relatively working economy, and a democratic government (with proportional Arab representation, need I remind you) which I think tempers the extremism. In the territories, no such system exists, and extremism goes unchecked. It is such an atmosphere that allows for street demonstrations and shaheeds.

Israel’s actions must be to break the cycle of extremism. Right now, they are playing defense by incapacitating terrorist organizations so that the bombings don’t occur. This has worked for some short-term repercussions: more botched bombings, more suicide bombers intercepted, more “work accidents.” But, they need to play offense as well. They need to engage the environment that creates the shaheeds. Take direct intervention to make life better for the Palestinian people, even if the PA is idly standing by letting the people suffer to promote violent actions. Furthermore, I think that this is the only course of action that can work against terrorism. I think that the US should think long and hard about not only decapitating terrorist organizations, but implementing a Marshall-type plan to improve the lives of Afghanis and Muslims. Engage them so that they cannot be swept away by extremism. Only then will we all be truly safe.

116

Dance about our people dying, will you? Let them all rot in HELL.

117

Yeah, well, thanks so much for that. :rolleyes:

118

Regardless whether this is true–and I think both that the term “American news media” is a bit reductionist and that the civilian casualties have been underreported in all corners–it doesn’t impact my question: How many people here know that this is going on? The point is that we can’t expect the perfect transfer of information; it’s silly to just assume that those Palestinians were cheering in response to the exact same thing to which we were reacting with grief and horror. It may be true, but it may not.

119

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mojo the Monkey *
**

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by erislover *
**

I believe that the “taking sides” is all about votes and money. Follow the trail of dollars to U.S. politicians and you will discover the source of U.S. loyalty.

120

Stunning assessment, HP.

Until someone can demonstrate otherwise, I will maintain that in ethical combat it is impossible to not support one side or the other. Truly I think it applies to all combat everywhere of all types, but ethical matters are easier to discuss.

Because it is impossible to not take a side, it is in a nation’s best interest to support its own economic and political concerns.

I have been disgusted with many actions my country has done, but I can understand them.