In a way, unfortunately, I agree. That is why I think it is in Israel’s best interest to get this peace thing all worked out now while the Jewish lobby is stronger than the Muslim one. The US Muslim population is growing faster than the Jewish one, and Muslims are becoming more wealthy and more politically active. This is not inherently a bad thing, but it could make US support of Israel less popular as time goes on. So fix the problems now so that they won’t catch up to you later.
I see some people either don’t bother to read the thread before they post, or just don’t comprehend it.
I would have to agree with you there, Gadarene. None of us has any clue what kind of information they may have received about any of this tragedy. Arafat obviously got the full story, but can anybody prove that the Palestinian people as a whole got correct information? As was mentioned above, they may not have gotten the full story. No, I’m not happy with the thought that they would be overjoyed at the deaths of thousands of American civilians. The thought that any human being, regardless of race or religion, could be that happy about the deaths of innocents quite honestly makes me sick. But we cannot allow ourselves to jump to that conclusion. We have no business condemning the monsters that have done this to us on one hand, and on the other hand condemning, outright, with almost no information, civilians of another country. Especially to the point of wanting them dead. These are, after all, just people. People with their own lives, and their own problems, and their own hatreds. With their own reasons for them. None of us has any idea what kind of anti-American information these people have been fed for years, either. If they want to dance in the streets because someone struck back against the country that they have all been raised to believe is the “Great Satan”, then I can understand it. I don’t like it, but I can understand it. Not liking it does not mean I’m willing to consign every Palestinian to hell. It means just that. I don’t like it. Why don’t you try focusing your anger on those who actually performed this deed,** Dixie**? Dancing isn’t the same as running a civilian jet liner into the side of a building, either. In the country I live in, you’re allowed to express yourself however you wish, as long as you don’t hurt anybody doing it. People dancing in the streets for something like this is right up there with KKK rallies for me. But I have to respect their right to believe as they do, as long as they don’t harm anyone because of it.
-Stil
Well, perhaps my reasoning is inherently flawed here, but when someone refers to America as the Great Satan I can’t help but think that they don’t really care about the number of deaths or type of attack.
Someone can instruct me contrariwise, however.
Palestinians, especially those in East Jerusalem, probably have the same access to news as the Israelis. Whether they choose to utilize that is another story. But, I have no doubt it was carried live on Israeli TV as well as most satellite feed channels, including BBC and CNN.
I would assume that they probably saw the World Trade Center in flames, at very least. The images need no explanation. Trying to rationalize their celebration of that image IMHO is folly. Especially because we are less than rational ourselves at a time like this.
one of the terrorists that took over one of the planes, had in the past participated in many of the palenstinian car bombings and suicide bombings.
I forget his name but it was the two word one, not the other one they displayed on the news.
They were not just celebrating in the streets about our disaster, but because they were successful in their terrorist act, the worst act the world has ever known.
“Ethical combat” is not exempt from pragmatic compromise. Conflicts are rarely black-and-white, good-versue-evil affairs. It is commonplace for both sides to have both noble and sinister motivations and objectives. Thus, diplomacy is often an intelligent alternative to “taking sides”.
The fire-bombing of Dresden in WWII killed far more people, and destroyed a beautiful city of absolutely no strategic interest. I consider such an act, even in warfare, to be an act of terrorism.
Will you all get over the dancing Palestinians, PLEASE.
They are wicked people, but there are only a handful of them (that we have seen, at least)
Recognise that the footage is a media splash, it aims specifically to get a reaction, which outraged, right thinking, people give it.
What is NOT a news story, and thus has been far less widely reported is that these people were quickly arrested by other Palestinians who were as shocked as you or I.
what is also not a news story, but has been reported in this thread, is that many Palestinians, like lots of other arabs and Europeans like me are horrified as well.
Cite, please?
You suppose wrongly. I support a democratic, secular state in the region. Israel is neither.
In all the news items I’ve looked at regarding this particular incident, I don’t remember seeing one statement that they were glad so many Americans got killed. The sentiment seemed to be more along the lines of “Now they know what it’s like for us.” In other words, the United States has finally been on the receiving end of sponsored terrorism, like the Palestinians have been for decades.
And therefore what? Perhaps there’s more to the rejection of the treaty than the fact the Israelis offered it.
That certainly isn’t the blackest mark on Sharon’s record. There was plenty of sentiment against Sharon for a number of other acts he committed. He was aware of this as well, which is why he showed up with 1,000 guards. Certainly not an approach that could be taken as peaceably “practicing his religion”.
Right, those Palestinians hate Americans just because the United States is richer and more powerful than we are. You really need to read up more on the United States’ active role in the conflicts in the Middle East.
Common decency being what? Blinkering oneself to the actual situation in the Middle East and just thinking “Israel good, Palestine bad” no matter what the circumstances?
You beg the question. How can you possibly know that all, or even most, of the Palestinians that were celebrating–hell, of Palestinians in general–actually refer to America as the Great Satan? I bow down before your evident psychic powers.
And edwino: Good point, but I’m still wary of making that assumption. You’re saying it’s reasonable to think that all of those people saw CNN or BBC or Israeli TV, instead of just being told by someone else who had seen it? It would make a difference, I think.
Rather than speculate what the Palestinians might or might not have seen, let’s take a look at their press.
The Palestinian Information Center I can’t link the story directly. Official responses to the attack are listed in 9/12 headlines.
The Palestine Times says that 350 worldwide Islamic theologians demonstrated support for the theological legitimacy of suicide attacks. Again, I can’t link it directly. It’s under the News button.
The Palestine Chronicle has these words to say about the attack.
The Palestine Media Watch is endorsing and circulating an open letter to the American people. Check it out.
Media Watch also reports more details on the celebrations.
PMW is an excellent site, by the way. I would recommend it to anyone interested in these issues.
YMMV.
MR
Did you leave this discussion? I hope not. I wanted to welcome you to the boards. I’ve wanted to post to this thread, but you’ve been making the points I wanted to. And very well, too.
You cannot compromise an ethic; to compromise an ethic is to abandon it. You can’t “almost” not kill people. You can’t “sorta” allow oppression. What seems gray is that the conflicts involve many seperate ethical concerns, and each side has valid grievances.
Good one… and what do you suppose diplomats do? If I am daily attempting to break into your house, and we call a diplomat to settle this out, who’s side was taken: yours or mine? Mine, of course, because it recognizes what is possibly an illegitamite belief. It grants support to a lie. I don’t deserve your house. I win when the diplomat steps up, because there will be compromise.
IRL the concerns are larger and more varied than something so simple as trying to ake over land… oh wait, not really.
Diplomacy always favors the aggressor and fails the defender, because it gives credence to the agressor’s plight. Is it possible the agressor was right in the first place? Ah, see?-- You took sides there, didn’t you? Whoops.
Thanks for that, Maeglin. The Chronicle article and the second Media Watch link were especially interesting. Regardless of what those celebrating Palestinians were thinking, it seems to me to be fairly facile to extrapolate from them to the bulk of the Palestinian population.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010914/aponline111605_000.htm
By Mariam Fam
Associated Press Writer
Friday, Sept. 14, 2001; 11:16 a.m. EDT
CAIRO, Egypt –– As Americans prayed for the victims of the attacks on the United States, Muslims at Friday prayers across the Arab world were divided in their reflections on the loss of lives.
Tuesday’s attacks, which toppled the twin towers of New York’s World Trade Center, came at a time of increased anti-U.S. sentiment in the region because of what is perceived here as a U.S. bias in favor of Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians.
On Friday, some expressed sympathy with the victims. Others gloated, saying they hope the tragedy would prompt the United States to be fairer with Arabs.
In Iraq, the preacher at Imam Al-Azam Mosque in Baghdad criticized those people who sympathized with the U.S. victims.
“Have you heard about the hypocrites and the dissemblers who are shedding tears over the tyrants whose hands are stained with the blood of our people, women and children?” the preacher said during his sermon, which was broadcast live on Iraqi television.
He described the attacks as “punishment for Zionists and the Americans.” Zionism refers to the movement to establish and maintain a Jewish state.
The United States is one of the most adamant supporters of U.N. sanctions imposed to punish Iraq for its 1990 invasion of Kuwait.
In Egypt and Jordan, the only two Arab countries with peace treaties with Israel, government-appointed preachers denounced the killings of innocent civilians.
“For someone to blow himself up among children and innocent people we tell him no, no, no,” said Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of Cairo’s Al-Azhar, Islam’s oldest and most prominent religious institution.
He added that although Islam urged Muslims “to fight those who fight them and to defend their rights by all available means,” still “it’s not courageous in any way to kill an innocent person or to kill thousands of people including men and women and children.”
But many worshippers disagreed.
“The sheik talks about women and children, aren’t they killing thousands of children and women in Jerusalem every hour?” said 20-year-old engineering student, Ahmed Adel.
“The attacks in the United states are the right thing to do. If anyone had asked me to do this myself, I would have done it, and I support whoever did this,” Adel said.
Adel added that since “Arabs can’t wage a war against Israel or the United States because they are powerful countries, we are forced to this. Suicide operations are the right thing to do.”
Taha Hamed, a 25-year-old teacher, said he feared the attacks would backfire on Arabs. Hamed worried the United States would retaliate hard against all Arabs countries it believes to be supporting terrorist groups.
In Jordan, Zuhair Qudah, a preacher at al-Lawzieen mosque on Amman’s outskirts, urged worshippers to pray for the U.S. victims.
“We stand by our Palestinian brothers in their struggle to end the occupation, but we don’t condone violence, ugly crimes and the killing of innocent people,” said Qudah.
© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press
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Since it is copyrighted, perhaps you shouldn’t have posted it?
Sorry.
Moderators please delete above post except for the link.
Article entitled “reactions mixed in middle east.”
It’s the civilian targets. While I don’t approve of
bombing the Pentagon, it is a legitimate military target. The WTC is an office building and tourist attraction. The passengers and crew of those planes were innocent bystanders. I have never approved of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the same reasons.
The destruction of the WTC was the deliberate murder of civilians. I find this unnacceptable for any group. Many, including posters in this thread, have said that terrorism is the only means for Palestinians to fight Israel. It is the fact that these attacks target (Yes, it's the same list again. It's still true and the victims of these attacks are still dead) a disco, a beach, and a pizzaria. If Palestinian bombers blew themselves to bits in military bases and givernment offices, my feelings would be quite different. If Israel were to order airstrikes on beaches, discos and pizzarias my feelings would be quite different. However, suicide bombers kill random people on the streets. Israel responds by killing known terrorists.
Having listened to the radio and people on the streets, I have to say Lemur's prediction was accurate. Many Americans believe that not only all Palestinians but all Arabs support the attacks. They will demand military actions, sanctions, and vengance. Politicians will bow to the will of the majority. I have tried to show these people their error, to make them realise how biggotted their rage has made them. It hasn't worked. There is currently a Pit thread on bumper sticker slogans that were never funny. "Kill 'em all! Let God sort 'em out!" is now a sentiment many Americans take very seriously.
and :rolleyes:
Um, no, Mr. Ahmed Adel, they aren’t killing “thousands of children and women in Jerusalem every hour”. If they were, Jerusalem would be completely depopulated in about a week.
Sheeesh.