I’m not fond of some of the language some “trans advocates” insist on using. I also am unclear on what actual measures they are advocating for.
Can we al agree that we should design our bathrooms in such a manner that they are accommodating for everybody? That we should creates prisons and shelters that are safe for everybody, regardless of their assigned or preferred gender? That we shouldn’t put too much weight on sporting achievements outside of a professional setting, so all participants can enjoy participating in competition without stuff like scholarships being on the line?
Wouldn’t that be beneficial for everyone?
Unlike arguing who can call themselves what — a spectator participation event with only losers?
What language might that be?
I feel we could hold this debate without the nasty lexicon: “TERF” is made up as a put-down, it has no constructive use. Other terms like “menstruaters” are more about trolling than about being precise.
I feel to be on the side of angels we should hold ourself to a higher standard than the bigots, I’m also reasonably sure that my views and identity will make more militant “trans advocates” put me in the opposing column.
I feel any debate about trans issues soon becomes an ideological purity test instead of discussing actual practical measures to make everyone’s life better.
I don’t care about what anyone (who is not my sexual partner) has under the hood. I do care that everybody can live (use public bathrooms and other facilities) without feeling threatened or being harassed. I feel we can accomplish this by making such facilities “unisex” or only segregated functionally (standing/sitting).
I know I’m looking at this from a privileged position (white middleclass heterosexual male), but I think we can solve this by sorting the practical stuff, completely bypassing any discussion about what is going on in anyone’s pants.
In a 2014 interview with The TransAdvocate, Smythe said:
It was meant to be a deliberately technically neutral description of an activist grouping.
“Healthcare providers and researchers” and “trans advocates” are not the same thing, and what the former are doing is not trolling. The Lancet, the UN, etc are not trans advocacy groups, just organizations in the health sector who are using more inclusive language (and not stopped entirely using “women and girls”, either)
So you’re “not fond of” made-up bullshit, it seems.
From your link:
“ Though it was created as a deliberately neutral descriptor, TERF is now typically considered derogatory”
It seems my appeal to move on from aggressive semantics is received exactly how I predicted.
Why can’t we skip the bullshit and hammer out practical stuff to actually improve people’s lives?
On what grounds can you access a person’s experience of themselves other than what they have to say about that?
From your own damn post:
I don’t know about you, but where I sit, bullshitting is much closer to trolling than anything the medical orgs using “menstruators” are doing.
And then doubling down after being called on your bullshit? That just renders your actual agenda transparent. So fuck your call for decorum, motherfucker, we can see it for the attempt to silence that it actually is.
Try ‘attack helicopter’ next time. . . it’s not like you’re actually hiding your bigotry.
Wow.
Arguing for less nasty jargon (so more people can understand and identify with actual arguments) is now arguing for silence.
How does this kind of argument help to make anyone’s life better? This is the exact thing I was talking about when I said that any discussion in this space devolves in a purity test.
You feel comfortable calling me a motherfucker because I said I do not particularly like some terms some people like to use. You immediately assume I must have some nefarious agenda if I do not completely bow down to your preferred lexicon.
“Exclusive Radical” much?
No, I called you a motherfucker for the lies, motherfucker.
“Radical feminist” is not a put down. Radical Feminism is distinct perspective within feminism. And “exclusionary” is a factual descriptor that TERFs readily admit to – they wish to exclude trans women from the category of women.
@The_Librarian
This is the trans activist habitat, Where some will lie in wait ready to pounce on you for any and all perceived expression that is not embracing the radical trans activist mantra.
Their soapbox gets a huge workout here but translates to zilch influence outside the pit.
I’ve always felt (at least for as long as I’ve known the term, which has been exclusively in the context of the discussion we are having now) that TERF is problematic because, so far as I can tell, “TERFs” need neither be radical (in the leftist sense, at least) nor feminist, but rather reactionary, and not per se associated with genuine feminism (as in, the only allegedly “feminist” views they seem to be committed to are the belief that people assigned male at birth shouldn’t be permitted in women’s restrooms). Although I have no doubt that some people who get the label “TERF” applied to them are indeed radical feminists, I’m pretty well satisfied that a great many are merely TE.
Anyway, @The_Librarian, congratulations on falling for the anti-trans agenda. Transphobes make up “some controversy” and then they get “centrists” (on the issue, at least) to step in and accuse #bothsides of being uncivil (TERF is a made up insult!) or of worrying too much about little things (Can’t we all just agree everyone should be safe and sports aren’t a big deal? And therefore you trans people should just focus on encouraging everyone to be more civil, and stop worrying about what sports teams they can play on??? Lol!).
You’re a sucker for transphobes. Because while there might be a trickle of genuine concern for women’s safety in the movement, it gets its mass–it’s political power–from people who just want trans people to shut up and go away already.
The “centrist” position between bigotry and decency is still bigoted indecency. That’s what you’ve fallen for: bigoted indecency.
In all seriousness, have you met many trans people? Because i have, and this claim is objectively false. As i said above, I’m rarely shocked when a trans person comes out. Because i already knew that “guy” was very feminine in “his” behavior. Nor is it shocking that a lot of “butch lesbians” come out as trans men.
I have obviously not met a every trans person out there. But i think i have met a statistically significant sample.
Like, if you want to claim that the hips and shoulders of trans people are more closely aligned to the sex whose puberty they experienced than to their identified gender, then yes, you are absolutely right. But their behavior? You are just wrong in your priors, and it’s leading you to false conclusions.
Why do you even ask? It’s evident she doesn’t care about the truth and will be happy to just make shit up if it suits her. So of course she has met trans people. Point of fact, she has several trans acquaintances who all agree she’s very respectful and they are comfortable being around her. It’s just a radical few pushing the trans movement to extremes who can’t see her side of the issue, don’t you know?
Speaking as an insurance professional who has familiarity with liability claim info, yeah, there are some bathrooms that host rapists. Not busy bathrooms at theaters, nor ones within easy shouting distance, like those at supermarkets and restaurants. But ladies rooms at gas stations and such can be bad.
I’m with you on this part. Men who look like men carry this off all the time. And if you want to sit in wait, a stall hides your gender presentation nicely.
And as i said above, a lot of the riskier public restrooms would be safer if there were a higher likelihood of random men walking in. There are ones i avoid that I’d use if i could drag my husband along.
Bathroom segregation is about modesty, or custom. I can’t imagine there’s any safety benefit for anyone.
I’m trying to fight ignorance.
There’s this idea that trans people just woke up one day and decided to present as the other sex, but are otherwise perfectly typical of people assigned male or female at birth. And it’s not true. They decide to present differently because they are different, and they’ve usually known it for years, and it was often obvious to those close to them.
All that is true. It’s also true that if you just look at the words, “social justice warrior” is a status that every good person should be proud to achieve.
While I’ve met self-identified TERFs, it is mostly used as a term of derision. And it has the more serious problem, described by @ASL_v2.0 , that most people called TERFs aren’t radical feminists, and many aren’t any flavor of feminist.
I prefer “transphobe”, which is more accurate. I don’t think it’s any more polite. But i don’t know any polite terms to describe racists, either.
I actually prefer “trans haters”, because their rhetoric is so often dripping with disgust and hatred.