Prophecies

Great Debates
61

tomndebb Sorry, 476 AD. Though it might be more objective to date the fall of Rome at 410 AD instead, certainly Alaric’s sack of the city was more traumatic, in the short term, than the end of the empire in 410.

To me, John’s Revelation works pretty well as a highly symbolic description of the fall of Rome (as well as more broadly representing archetypes of good and evil), but I don’t think an argument along those lines is productive since the way we interpret vague and highly allusive prophecies (and let’s be honest, most biblical prophecies are vague and allusive) is going to be subjective.

Re: Luke-Acts, I’ll only say that if I was writing a book about the preaching mission of Paul, and if I knew he died in a dramatic way after enduring plenty of other persecutions, I’d certainly include his death in the text. I would also add that if I knew that the Apostle James had been thrown from the Temple, and if I had written so movingly about Jesus being tempted on top of that very same temple, I would certainly make reference to James’ death as well. The fact that the author of Acts doesn’t mention either one (or for that matter, the fall of Jerusalem, which was hinted at in Luke’s Gospel) seems to be a reasonable guide, to me, for dating the text. None of those three events were exactly insignificant.

I mean, Luke finds the death of the relatively minor character Stephen interesting enough to write about, but not James or Paul?

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

62

(counter point)

Well, in Isaiah 6 - he hears the lords call and he says “send me” - so he volunteered for the position, etc - secondly, thats in story form telling a history.

[QUOTE=Isaiah 6 ]
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.[a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “For how long, Lord?”

And he answered:

“Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the Lord has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken.
13 And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”
[/QUOTE]

I see that as being no different than the average evangelist/preacher/follower/teacher - and how many of those, during their days said more than “God sent me”? (IOW, I don’t think they called themselves a ‘prophet’ in the context from this thread - I think others called them such).

Those that stand up on a corner/pedestal and say “I’m a prophet of the lord, he chose me above all others” - are far from humble - I’m hard pressed to decide if JC himself proclaimed he was a ‘prophet’ and he certainly would have been the most qualified.

63

Stephen gets in as the first martyr–bolstered by Paul’s participation.

Acts is not a detailed history of the church. There is one reference to Philip in a foreshadowing of Paul’s mission to the Gentiles, but it is actually a formulaic presentation of the spread of the message. It begins among the Jews and continues along that line until Peter gets told to stop worrying about kashrut and Paul wins the fight over circumcision, then all references to the Jewish church are abandoned while Paul takes the message to Gentiles through Asia Minor and Greece. Then, when Paul gets sent to Rome, he repeats, in miniature, that tale to that point, first preaching to Jews, most of whom reject his word, and then preaching to Gentiles where the Gospel having been brought to the center of the empire, the story ends.

As the purpose of the story was not intended to set down the biographies of the Twelve, very little mention is made of them except where the tale needs to point to an action that leads to the mission to the Gentiles.

You might well have written it differently, but you did not write it and the author does not appear to have the same goal, in mind, as you would.

64

Can you show us where you recorded these prophesies before they came true? What authorities did you call? What media did you inform?

Did you make any effort at all to save lives?

65

Interesting that you should begin your quote by cutting off this part:

In other words, his “Send me” follows a declaration that he is unworthy, following which an angel purges him of his sin.

I do not claim that all the prophets were humble, but you asked if any were and Isaiah (in the unabridged version) fits.

66

And more importantly, do you have a record of all the prophesies you made that didn’t come to pass?

67

I didn’t cut it off for any specific reason - just that a call went out and he ‘answered’ - slightly different than just being named ‘hey, joe - you’re now a prophet’ - that was my only point there.

As to his being humble or not - feeling unworthy != being humble, but I will grant the interpretation is certainly there.

Again - did Isaiah run around calling himself a ‘prophet’ or did others call him one based on his actions/preaching? that is also a difference in humility.

(and again, using the term prophet as discussed in this thread - someone with the gift of phrophecy (future seeing) not as a ‘teacher’ that is also a common usage of the term)

68

True enough. Then again, you didn’t either, so all either of us has is speculation about the author’s likely motivations, and I don’t agree with you that biographical details were uninteresting to Luke. It seems to me that if Luke saw fit to note the death of the first martyr of the church (Stephen, who wasn’t even among the Twelve), he would have logically seen fit to note the deaths of some more important figures as well.

69

Then why didn’t he?

What does this tell you, possibly, about the relative importance of the events/figures that are missing?

70

I mean, I’d argue (with people like John AT Robinson) that the author of Luke/Acts doesn’t mention the deaths of Paul, Peter, and James, and the fall of Jerusalem, because he was writing in the early '60s before these events had happened (or at least before he had heard about them).

71

And I would argue that Stephen only got included because he was first and included a direct connection to Paul while the whole rest of the text moves in a totally different direction, not interested in the lives of the apostles (or anyone else) except as they appear in the ongoing story of the movement of Christianity out of Jerusalem and, ultimately, away from the Jews to the Gentiles.

I suspect that we will continue to disagree on this point.

72

I agree that “humble” is a poor term to describe the Biblical prophets. Jeremiah in particular ranted and raved for 50 straight chapters primarily because he craved attention.

And it’s a foregone conclusion that in today’s world, all the prophets would be homeless beggars that nobody pays any attention. Which reminds me – I’m thinking of starting a project to document the rants & raves of modern beggars, to see how many of their predictions and proclamations come true (with rigorous statistical analysis to demonstrate how close they come to pure chance, naturally) – anyone care to donate? :slight_smile:

73

I did write the FBI, but I didn’t want to be just another wacko so I just wrote it and said :“okay for whatever it’s worth here’s a prophecy”

If others say the same thing (prophets or physic’s) and then it comes true … now the FBI has a track record of who to believe. I don’t bother them and they don’t bother me.

Now the NSA is a different matter lol

Seriously humble is an important ingredient. I would say Isaiah was humbled having to prophesy in his underwear so to speak and cook on cow dung for three years. He was a prophet for four Kings.

Micah was humble and he even talked back to his accusers and they branded him a false prophet until his prophesy came true that is.

Elijah was humbled after Mt Carmel and proving that his God was better than Jezebel’s god by his sacrifice being burned up with fire from heaven after pouring water all over his sacrifice.

Jezebel was going to kill Elijah, but God caught up with Elijah and said, "I have seven thousand people left in Israel who have never bowed down before Baal and whose mouths have never kissed his idol.”

Have you not read where Jesus was prophesied by Isaiah 9: 6-7

74

I just saw this … yes and it still bothers me, because it was the first time I heard a prophesy that was shall we say meant for me to repeat.

The year was 1995: “A giant star will fall on North Dakota” this one has not come true yet.

Pray for North Dakota is all I can think it means … for after it happens will be too late to pray.

Prayer is seeking God’s perfect will … not telling Him what to do.

75

Before I tear this well-known quote apart limb to limb, I want to know you are serious that this is a prophecy, otherwise I will assume this is a whoosh.

76

So you’ve got absolutely nothing to show us that these weren’t “postdictions”-supposed predictions made after the fact. You made absolutely no effort to tell those that would be directly effected, and when you supposedly dropped a note to the FBI you downplayed it as much as you possibly can to cover your own ass. Way to care about others, dude.

77

NSA…FBI…please tell me you’re joking??? :eek:

(Not that you’ve anything to worry about – I’m confident they have a special “nut drawer” for letters like yours.)

The only thing that rested on Jesus’ shoulders was the cross as he carried it uphill to Golgotha.

Nobody bestowed those titles upon Jesus until long after he died, and I doubt they would have used those terms if Isaiah hadn’t written them. A classic example of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Except, Jesus ain’t ruling dick-all, he was carried away into the clouds never to be seen or heard from again, except occasionally in a taco shell or a sweat stain on Al Bundy’s t-shirt.

78

Huh?? So after this unprecedented disaster happens, we should abandon all North Dakotans to their fate? What about the injured survivors, the orphans and widows? What a nice guy you are. //rolleyes//

79

So, a completely open ended prediction, open to lots of interpretation, with no time frame, that can never be shown to be false. Lovely. That’s real cutting edge prophesying right there.

80

I know that proving anything to you Czarcasm will take a miracle, but he is a God of miracles.

I care about others all I do is repeat the message, “Don’t shoot the messager”

From Answers to tough questions. by Nelson Publishers.