The consensus here seems to be, “You have no right to be proud of your tribe/nation unless your tribe/nation has virtually nothing take pride in. If your group has no real accomplishments, you are entitled to be proud of your heritage, because you need the boost to your self-esteem. But if your group has much to be proud of, shut up.”
I think you are on to something here.
This is not my position, nor is it the position of anyone else in this thread that I’ve noticed.
I think it’s a somewhat tongue in cheek exaggeration of a fairly common position actually. You were stirring up so much dust going back and forth parsing the issue (‘ethnic pride’ has a positive aspect if you’re an oppressed minority but it’s still bad, talking about ‘pride’ then saying that doesn’t include celebration culture, etc) it’s harder to say what you personally really mean.
Most of the purpose of the thread has been to try and look at the idea objectively – what are the positives of having ethnic pride? I couldn’t think of any significant positives except for solidarity and community for oppressed groups that otherwise don’t have much in the way of solidarity and community. And I could think of utterly massive negatives – chiefly that it’s a prerequisite for various atrocities, which can come from any group, whether a majority or minority, and whether oppressed or not. It’s not at all about what’s “allowed” – it’s about trying to evaluate the concept.
Disagreements about what counts as “ethnic pride” can certainly be a reasonable part of this discussion.
I agree. And I think it’s a defensible position. It’s basically saying “don’t be a [whatever the equivalent of a “sore loser” is when you’re the winner]”.
The Hidjab in itself is not a symbol of ‘historic oppression’ except to the religion haters. The choice to hear a head scarf is not oppressing. imposing it would be but not as a free choice.
You say “religion haters” as though that’s self-evidently a bad thing.
It is self evidently a bad thing as the Jews in the Europe learned following 1933.
Or the old believers sent to the gulag by another form of religion haters.
Riiight, because you can’t hate something without committing genocide. :rolleyes:
Hate does make genocide a lot easier. I’ll endorse the idea that hating anyone due to their religion is entirely negative.
I thought we were talking about hating the religion itself.
That might be a bit different – are you talking about religion in general, or a specific religion? In general, I think hatred should be avoided, or at least only held for concepts (and people) whose primary goal or actions are hateful and destructive (i.e. Nazis, white supremacism, ISIS, etc.).
Well, we’re getting off topic once again. But I’ll just say that I don’t agree with the unstated assumption behind your statement there.
And if I told you that my experience has shown me that white people–especially white males of a certain age–tend to be disproportionately represented by arrogant and condescending assholes, would this advance the discussion any? I don’t think so. For one thing, acting confidently does not mean a person actually is confident. And for another thing, confidence is a subjective thing. I might actually be assessing the white guys who strike me as arrogant know-it-alls through a lens of prejudice, or through my own cultural bias.
It might as be that the confidence you’re perceiving is a coping mechanism. Like, I’ve got a great sense of humor. I’m not afraid to let out a one-liner or crack on someone or myself. An outside observer may see this as a sign that I’m confident–and they aren’t exactly wrong. But they don’t realize that I use humor as a way to defuse my self-doubts. It’s a habit I adopted in high school to distract bullies. Some people rely on mantras and spirituality to get through internal and external challenges. This may be a controversial opinion, but here goes: I think a lot of black people are religious because they don’t think they are strong enough to fight their own battles. To me, this is the epitome of low self-esteem. It’s just that it is a type of low self-esteem that is encouraged by society.
Finally, I have noticed that black people who think highly of themselves tend to be more expressive with their confidence, and thus more memorable than all the black people who don’t give a fuck about themselves. So I suspect there is a lot of confirmation bias at play.
Of course, you can simply be oppressive like the Communists, and send religious believers to reeducation and to the gulags. But you skipped that…
The hatred of religion is as bad as the hatred of non-religion.
Hating a religion itself leads to this same thing, it is a self deception to think there is a real difference. as I remember Miller once saying it is not any different than the religious based prejudiced against the gays saying they hate the Sin not the Sinner. That is bullshitting.
Indeed we are, and the track record of this when it has power tells us the hatreds of the minority religion leads to hatred of the actual believers and
The pretension there is a real operational difference in the end is just a pretending excuse.