Prostitution and Feminism

[mswas]

Someone I know very well is a prostitute. In the time that I’ve known her, I have seen about the worst societal treatment of a person that I could possibly imagine short of outright torture. The level of condescension that is given to a person of this profession is incredible.

A prostitute cannot tell their loved ones what they do for a living without fearing ostracism by friends and family. Though far be it from those judging to pay the person’s way. In my experience prostitutes oftentimes come from backgrounds where they have had to provide for themselves, and it’s one of the few ways that they can make a decent amount of money.

Prostitutes make a lot of money. This is for the most part true, but it’s not entirely true. The average hooker on the street is not making that much money in general. They are probably getting about 20 for a blow job, while enduring great risk to their well being through predatory actions of tricks, possible incarceration for a victimless crime, and a high risk of STD infection. A prostitute that works with an agency oftentimes rakes in a great deal more than that, on average making about 250 an hour, however the agency has many hidden fees that can end up taking up to 60% of that 200-250 an hour. If she gains her own clients, she will make a great deal more, but maintaining such a business on her own is a full time job in addition to still being required to go out and fuck three or four people in an evening. This can result in a long 10-16 hour day, at the end of which they come home with somewhere between $ 600-1000.

Maintaining clients requires the same sort of business acumen that any other sort of client management position requires. Their entire job is social, in addition to having a manual labor requirement. A higher class prostitute who is at less risk for all the dangers that go with the job, and who also makes more money is an incredibly skilled PR person.

High levels of drug use are oftentimes required to satisfy the clients. They can say no, this is true, but it is quite difficult to detach yourself from attraction in order to have sex with someone without them.

Most of the Pimps I’ve heard of are actually madames. For the most part the calls are booked by and the business is run from top to bottom by women who were once prostitutes themselves.

It is a myth that prostitutes don’t get off with their clients. I’ve heard stories of amazing sex, both physically and emotionally that has been had with a paying client. Oftentimes repeat customers become an actual relationship.

My friend that I am referring to does not hide the fact she is a prostitute at all from her social group. This results in jealousy, and straight out bigotry from people who adored her prior to knowing how she earns her money. This being one of the sweetest most caring, most sensitive individuals I’ve ever met in my entire life.

Tricks are not mistreating the women generally. The story of how common it is for a prostitute to get beat up by a trick is more Hollywood than reality. For sure it happens, the same as women get beaten by their boyfriends, but probably with an even smaller frequency than domestic abuse.

It is very difficult to have a serious relationship, because most people can’t deal with the prostitute’s career. Most prostitutes lead double lives maintaining a relationship with someone that doesn’t know what they do for a living, if they want to have a chance at a normal relationship at all.

She must subject her body to many rigors just to maintain her job. I won’t go into these in detail.

There is even a certain stigma put upon a man that would sleep with a prostitute, even though, for the most part, probably 1 in 4 men you meet has slept with one at some point. Tricks come from all walks of life.

Prostitution is freelance work. You get paid when you work and there is no system of benefits. Work is not always guaranteed, and some nights does not come at all, even though you must work hard to try and find it.

I’ve spent a lot of time paying attention to how society treats women. To how I’ve treated women, and to how others I know have treated women, and how women I know have been treated. I came to the conclusion, that the best way to tell how society treats women is to look at how it treats prostitutes.

From Straight Dope Conventions where women are groped whether they like it or not, to boyfriends that beat their girlfriends, or in the corporate world where we are taught that women can be men just as well as any man can, but deserve less money for it, we live in a society that pretty much outright hates women. This has been apparent to me for a long time, but I never realized so clearly until I saw how prostitutes are treated, especially one that can hold her head up, and look you straight in the eye and answer honestly when you ask her what she does for a living. I honestly don’t believe that our culture treats women any better than islamic cultures, but as with everything, it’s really easy to point a finger at those backward muslims, because for the most part in America, people don’t really care, unless their right to a Playstation or Expedition is at stake.

Erek

God is the objective, I hope you’ve got him in your crosshairs, because he’s a quick bastard.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by mswas *
** The level of condescension that is given to a person of this profession is incredible.

**

Well, yeah. I can’t think of to many societies where prostitution was well respected other then a few courtiers.

**
It is very difficult to have a serious relationship, because most people can’t deal with the prostitute’s career.

**

Seems perfectly reasonable if we’re talking about a romantic relationship.

**
There is even a certain stigma put upon a man that would sleep with a prostitute, even though, for the most part, probably 1 in 4 men you meet has slept with one at some point. Tricks come from all walks of life.

**

Do you have a city or did you just make those numbers up?

**
I came to the conclusion, that the best way to tell how society treats women is to look at how it treats prostitutes.

**

Uh huh, so looking at one very narrow section of our society tells you how we treat all women.

**
I honestly don’t believe that our culture treats women any better than islamic cultures, but as with everything, it’s really easy to point a finger at those backward muslims, because for the most part in America, people don’t really care, unless their right to a Playstation or Expedition is at stake.
**

Were you sniffing glue or huffing paint before or during this post?

Marc

[Malacandra]

Someone I know very well is a prostitute. In the time that I’ve known her, I have seen about the worst societal treatment of a person that I could possibly imagine short of outright torture.

You may need to work on your imagination a little, then.

The level of condescension that is given to a person of this profession

Profession, huh? Where are the schools? Where do they hold the exams? Who presents the diploma? I was under the impression that pretty much anyone who wanted to peddle tail could go right ahead and do so – and that may be part of the explanation for why it’s not very well regarded, though by no means all.

is incredible.

Fairly credible, if you live in a society that views prostitution as immoral and criminal. Debate on whether this ought to be so we can put on one side for now; we know what society does think about prostitution, so its reaction to any given instance of the class can hardly be viewed as “incredible”.

A prostitute cannot tell their loved ones what they do for a living without fearing ostracism by friends and family. Though far be it from those judging to pay the person’s way.

Rrrright. So if I think a relation or acquaintance of mine ought not to be turning tricks for a living, it somehow becomes my responsibility to support them? Sheesh.

In my experience prostitutes oftentimes come from backgrounds where they have had to provide for themselves,

No shit. Who’s going to fuck strangers for money when they already have private means of support?

and it’s one of the few ways that they can make a decent amount of money.

Well, if you really can’t steel yourself to get by on what you can make pumping gas, flipping burgers, or stacking shelves, cry me a fucking river for being “forced” into prostitution.

Prostitutes make a lot of money. This is for the most part true, but it’s not entirely true.

The following passage contains a good deal of arguing both A and ~A. Make up your mind.

The average hooker on the street is not making that much money in general. They are probably getting about $ 20 for a blow job, while enduring great risk to their well being through predatory actions of tricks, possible incarceration for a victimless crime, and a high risk of STD infection.

Better to pump gas, flip burgers or stack shelves, then, wouldn’t you say?

A prostitute that works with an agency oftentimes rakes in a great deal more than that, on average making about 250 an hour, however the agency has many hidden fees that can end up taking up to 60% of that 200-250 an hour. If she gains her own clients, she will make a great deal more, but maintaining such a business on her own is a full time job in addition to still being required to go out and fuck three or four people in an evening. This can result in a long 10-16 hour day, at the end of which they come home with somewhere between 600-1000.

Cry me a bigger fucking river for being expected to take home a lousy sixty bucks an hour, then. Pay much tax out of that?

Maintaining clients requires the same sort of business acumen that any other sort of client management position requires.

So get a client management job that doesn’t require you to fuck strangers for a living, then. Why is this hard to explain?

Their entire job is social, in addition to having a manual labor requirement. A higher class prostitute who is at less risk for all the dangers that go with the job, and who also makes more money is an incredibly skilled PR person.

See previous comment.

High levels of drug use are oftentimes required to satisfy the clients. They can say no, this is true, but it is quite difficult to detach yourself from attraction in order to have sex with someone without them.

See previous comment about other less-censured ways of making a living. Really, how much respect do you expect anyone to have for a job where you have to be out of your head on recreational drugs to do the work?

Most of the Pimps I’ve heard of are actually madames. For the most part the calls are booked by and the business is run from top to bottom by women who were once prostitutes themselves.

That’s actually quite interesting, because what I usually hear is that the toms are forced into their work by Evil Men ™.

It is a myth that prostitutes don’t get off with their clients. I’ve heard stories of amazing sex, both physically and emotionally that has been had with a paying client. Oftentimes repeat customers become an actual relationship.

That’s also interesting, and I say this with no irony whatever.

My friend that I am referring to does not hide the fact she is a prostitute at all from her social group. This results in jealousy, and straight out bigotry from people who adored her prior to knowing how she earns her money. This being one of the sweetest most caring, most sensitive individuals I’ve ever met in my entire life.

“Jealousy”? Really? As to bigotry, I guess you can be a couple of rungs below Mother Teresa, but if people find out you peddle crack to schoolkids then you’ll be the target of some approbation. I don’t equate peddling your crack with peddling crack, you understand; I merely point out that calling the reaction “bigotry” is rather straining the word to breaking point.

Tricks are not mistreating the women generally. The story of how common it is for a prostitute to get beat up by a trick is more Hollywood than reality. For sure it happens, the same as women get beaten by their boyfriends, but probably with an even smaller frequency than domestic abuse.

Make your mind up. A couple of paragraphs ago you were at pains to point out the real and present danger inherent in this occupation. You can’t have it both ways.

It is very difficult to have a serious relationship, because most people can’t deal with the prostitute’s career. Most prostitutes lead double lives maintaining a relationship with someone that doesn’t know what they do for a living, if they want to have a chance at a normal relationship at all.

The bigots. Strangely, most people have a problem with their S.O. fucking someone else, even for fun. Are you seriously suggesting that we should revise our opinions wholesale, such that fucking for money doesn’t count as cheating?

She must subject her body to many rigors just to maintain her job. I won’t go into these in detail.

River #3. That a man must keep himself slim, fit and agile in order to be a cat-burglar doesn’t add one whit to the sum of my respect for him.

There is even a certain stigma put upon a man that would sleep with a prostitute, even though, for the most part, probably 1 in 4 men you meet has slept with one at some point.

One in four? Really? That particular statistic seems to get used a lot. One in four women are raped. One in four women suffer domestic violence. One in four men has slept with a whore. One in four such statistics are pulled out of someone’s ass with no evidence whatever.

Tricks come from all walks of life.

Wow, seven consecutive words that I can’t find all that much to disagree with.

Prostitution is freelance work. You get paid when you work and there is no system of benefits. Work is not always guaranteed, and some nights does not come at all, even though you must work hard to try and find it.

True so far as it goes, but morally neutral, neither a reason why anyone should or should not respect hookers.

I’ve spent a lot of time paying attention to how society treats women. To how I’ve treated women, and to how others I know have treated women, and how women I know have been treated. I came to the conclusion, that the best way to tell how society treats women is to look at how it treats prostitutes.

Care to talk us through your reasoning? It’s something less than self-evident.

From Straight Dope Conventions where women are groped whether they like it or not, to boyfriends that beat their girlfriends, or in the corporate world where we are taught that women can be men just as well as any man can, but deserve less money for it, we live in a society that pretty much outright hates women.

Not only empty rhetoric, but utter, utter, utter bollocks that doesn’t deserve a serious answer. Vintage 1970s victim feminism. Got issues?

This has been apparent to me for a long time, but I never realized so clearly until I saw how prostitutes are treated, especially one that can hold her head up, and look you straight in the eye and answer honestly when you ask her what she does for a living. I honestly don’t believe that our culture treats women any better than islamic cultures, but as with everything, it’s really easy to point a finger at those backward muslims, because for the most part in America, people don’t really care, unless their right to a Playstation or Expedition is at stake.

IANAY, but I’m prepared to reiterate “utter bollocks” at this point.

Oh, and then you stopped, just as you were working yourself up to some serious polemic that might have gone some way to explaining what the fuck prostitution had to do with feminism, as per your title.

…we live in a society that pretty much outright hates women. This has been apparent to me for a long time, but I never realized so clearly until I saw how prostitutes are treated.

And if that were true, male prostitutes should enjoy the uncritical approval of their peers and the utmost accommodation from the law – since, by your argument, mistreatment of prostitutes is proof of hatred of women. Whereas… well, you fill in the blank.

[Desmostylus]

Misogyny, puritanism, drug prohibition and a general “fuck you” attitude to the poor all combine to create the situation you describe.

Your OP focuses solely on the misogynist element. It isn’t the sole cause.

Your argument will fail, not because of attack by misogynist assholes like malacandra, but because of the popular acceptance of the other attitudes that are necessary to create the plight of the prostitutes.

[smiling_bandit]

River #3. That a man must keep himself slim, fit and agile in order to be a cat-burglar doesn’t add one whit to the sum of my respect for him.

Bwah-ha-ha-ha!

That’s the best line I’ve heard all week!

Anyway, Desmostylus, I see no evidence of Mysgony in Malacandra’s post. What makes you think he/she/it is in any way mysogonist. I happen to agree with every word, and I rather like women. :o

[Malacandra]

Misogynist? How so? Care to point out errors in my reasoning rather than name-call? Asshole yourself. The OP was as leaky as a sieve, and you can’t call “misogynist” on me for pulling it to pieces.

[Evil_Captor]

You guys are misinterpeting Demostylus’ post. He was saying that misogyny in the general population contributes to the low level of esteem prostitutes receive.

I also think a lot of the dislike of prostitutes has its roots in ambivalent feelings about sexuality itself. The prostitute, culturally representing sex for sex’s sake, gets the approbation that people feel when they confront their own appetites for sex.

[Desmostylus]

That was a good post, Evil Captor, but to be quite fair to malacandra, he didn’t misrepresent my post at all. I did call malacandra a misogynist asshole.

[London_Calling]

Fwiw, I had to re-think my perceptions of prostitution recently when a ‘massage parlour’ popped up out of nowhere right next door to me.

It’s interesting. Having never had direct contact with the biz before, I discovered all my perceptions were based, naturally I suppose, on others’ perceptions. Those ranged from the nudge-nudge stuff of growing up to the ‘gritty’ documentaries on teevee. All of which, it suddenly transpired, had left me with a rather confused picture.

Anyway, to cut a long story short and having got to know some of the girls and the manager, I’ve filled in a few gaps, as it were . . .

All of the girls next door work one day a week only, they’re all students or single parents and they’re all making their way in life outside the male-dominated/led conventional social structure. I find I admire this rather more than, say, the Liz Hurley getting ‘accidentally’ pregnant school of motherhood/hook the meal ticket that both my brothers and several friends found themselves “cornered” by (their words) – but then I’m particularly appalled by that branch of female manipulation for personal reasons, so these girls next door would impress me.

I’m also aware that the language surrounding prostitution is not constructive or accurate, and that most of societies perceptions haven’t yet moved on from the late 18th century.

And, of course, we’re all prostitutes; it’s just that selling sex is singled out.

I can’t agree with everything you’re saying ** mswas** but that’s as much because I’m as unsettled in my own views on some areas as I suspect you are, but I do recognise you’re questioning conventional wisdom in a constructive way and working through ideas.

[Lord_Ashtar]

*Originally posted by mswas *
From Straight Dope Conventions where women are groped whether they like it or not, to boyfriends that beat their girlfriends, or in the corporate world where we are taught that women can be men just as well as any man can, but deserve less money for it, we live in a society that pretty much outright hates women. This has been apparent to me for a long time, but I never realized so clearly until I saw how prostitutes are treated, especially one that can hold her head up, and look you straight in the eye and answer honestly when you ask her what she does for a living. I honestly don’t believe that our culture treats women any better than islamic cultures, but as with everything, it’s really easy to point a finger at those backward muslims, because for the most part in America, people don’t really care, unless their right to a Playstation or Expedition is at stake.

Prostitutes make up (I would guess) less than 1% of the population. You’re going to make a judgment about how the society treats women based on this small percentage?

Please.

[Malacandra]

Why, thank you, Desmo. And now that the audience is clear on that, either back your “misogynist” label the fuck up, or withdraw your lazy, dishonest, ad-hominem argument. Honestly, I do not care which.

[shijinn]

no comment on the OP, just felt strangely obliged to post these unrelated links i found in a recent thread.

http://poetry.rotten.com/spiral/

http://www.hollywoodpolice.org/special_units/cat.htm

[mswas]

The response to this thread pretty much validates my point. I don’t have a particular case to argue here. For the most part I have met more ignorant pricks on this board than pretty much any venue I’ve ever participated in. So I kind of expect it. I was just venting, as the Pit is designed for.

The truth is most people judge based upon the profession, though prostitutes are not doing anything that is particularly wrong. They are having sex with someone who wants to have sex with them. They are doing damage to themselves? Sure. But I’ve never found that to be a valid reason to abuse someone.

As for people quoting me percentages of the population and asking where I got my statistics from. As far as the statistics, I did what every other person that quotes statistics does, I made them up based upon my own perceptions. Now I could probably come up with some complicated math formula to confuse you into believing my statistics were somehow more valid than the guy who just made his up on the message board, but I’m not going to yank your chain. I pulled 1 in 4 from the air because it seemed like a reasonable cross section of people I know who have admitted it to me. But, the particular cross section I most closely associate with, might not be indicative of the entire population. You know, as though I polled 10,000 people randomly from New York City, which as we all know is no more indicative of the United States than my opinion based upon the small cross section that I am associated with, reflects New York City accurately right?

As for prostitutes being 1% of the population, I feel like you might be surprised at what prostitution happens in every day society. And I feel like it accurately reflects our treatment of women as a whole, because sometimes there is one shining example that epitomizes a whole level of thought within a culture. Sure you might not believe this, but I do, so if you wish to discuss anything with me, you might want to keep that in mind. The Microcosm reflects the Macrocosm.

I mean, no I generally don’t have cites, I don’t feel I need to point out that Foucault said exactly what I have also said to sound more lofty. That’s why Waking Life sucked. I see a lot of things with my own two eyes, and that seems to not be enough for this board most of the time. They want me to give them a link where someone else said it because there is safety in numbers when presenting an opinion. For instance, I don’t need to read a study about how much of the economy is based upon the illicit drug trade because I see how much of the money in my community and the communities next to mine comes from drug money with my own two eyes. But if I wanted to tell you that, I’d probably have to find someone who’s better at(cared about) math than I am, if I ever wanted to use the holy “numbers” to illustrate a point.

But to get back to the point, I find it very interesting that people would say “Of course she doesn’t deserve respect, she’s a whore.”, now I know there are those of you that said this, not in so many words that would like to challenge me to show exactly where they said that, and I wouldn’t be able to, because it wasn’t flat out stated in some cases, merely implied, but I think the implication is enough and I think it’s pretty fucking appalling the way I’ve seen prostitutes treated. This is why I started a Pit thread and not a Great Debates thread. All the Straight Dopes in Great Debates try as hard as they might to turn us into more of the same, but unfortunately I cannot ever truly be a part of that crowd because I’ve had sex with multiple people, in oftentimes scandalous and compromising fashion, so it might be appropriate for you all to say nasty things about me personally, and perhaps even ostracize me, for having sex in public, for having sex to get revenge, for having sex with a prostitute, for helping a prostitute find work, for doing drugs for selling drugs, for having sex while on drugs, for having sex while on my desk at work (Is that a form of prostitution?). I mean you’d be hard pressed to find a culture that would find those behaviors admissible if prostitution is such a horrid crime. But luckily for me, I don’t live in a world where other societies tell me what to do, and I am allowed to treat an extremely decent human being with love and respect, whether or not having sex for money is how she prefers to earn a living. I mean I know it’s not respectable like being the CEO of Enron or K-Mart, but it pays her bills, and I’m happy for her.

Erek

[mswas]

Malacandra: I was never asking anyone to feel sorry for someone for being a prostitute, I was just lamenting the fact that jackasses like you treat them like shit for no apparent reason other than “culture” taught them to.

So I have a response to a couple points only. Male prostitutes are not looked upon with the same contempt as female prostitutes. And I don’t understand what exams and schools have to do with my use of the word “profession”. I’ve been a computer tech/consultant since I was 18 I’ll be 26 next month. I never spent a day in class except for an A+ class that I didn’t bother taking the exam afterward because the material was so elementary I ended up teaching the class because hte teacher was a moron. That’s ALL of the computer training I have besides a High School C++ class, am I allowed to say that my profession is Computer Consultant? Maybe I’m allowed because there ARE classes, I just didn’t utilize them. As for the girl in question, she works harder than I EVER have and I get 50-60 bucks an hour. Not to mention that when a girl is on-call, she’s not getting paid unless she’s actually WITH the client. It’s a VERY difficult job, and most girls I know won’t do it if they aren’t getting at least 200 an hour. Sometimes you can get 500 an hour. I know they make their decision to have this job. I am completely aware of this and I don’t think they deserve pity for their job. I am just talking about the general hate and ridicule that people are giving them for no other reason than societal programming.

And since your English ain’t so good I’ll help you out. I said that getting beat up by a trick was a POSSIBILITY, not a PROBABILITY. And I also said this in the paragraph about STREET Hookers, of which I don’t know a single one. The only reason I know how much the BJ costs is because of guys I’ve met telling me. Escorts, don’t really have that much risk of getting beat up. I have long hair, and I’ve been lucky enough to have a streak of gorgeous girlfriends, so I have seen the kind of guys that pull up to a corner and ask women for sex, and I DEFINITELY wouldn’t want to see anyone go home with them.

Erek

When this board is done fighting ignorance, maybe they’ll have time to help with the ignorance of other people too.

[Stonebow]

I pretty much agree with everything that Malacandra has to say on the subject.

Look, I don’t have much moral outrage for prostitutes…but it’s one of those professions that I can’t get myself worked up about defending. Kind of like telemarketers and psychics. Reap what you sow, and all that.

And if you can’t understand why your lady friend can’t make a love connection, the fucking other men, for money or for free, usually puts the breaks on most men wanting to further a commitment. Call me old-fashioned, but don’t call me a misogynist, because the same contempt is reserved for male prostitutes.

If you’re trying to tell me that society won’t be equal until women can fuck anyone they want, any time, for cash or for free, with the full support of society as a whole, then count me out. Frankly, I think that we’d be better served if men developed a little more shame in their promiscuity than removing it from women.

and btw- whatever your sexual politics, I think that most people can agree that ‘having sex for revenge’ is an emotionally unhealthy activity. You might want to consider that for your own sake.

[Ludovic]

mswas wrote:

As far as the statistics, I did what every other person that quotes statistics does, I made them up based upon my own perceptions. Now I could probably come up with some complicated math formula to confuse you into believing my statistics were somehow more valid than the guy who just made his up on the message board, but I’m not going to yank your chain.

I guess you don’t believe in science.

[Cat_Whisperer]

Very interesting OP. A tip that will help you in your battle about cites - if it isn’t a fact that you can look up and verify, call it an opinion. There’s nothing wrong with posting opinions; it leads to many a great discussion. Mistaking your opinions for facts always gets people in trouble on this board, though.

[Bricker]

mswas: your cavalier attitude towards statistics is nothing short of appalling. It may be true that on message boards in general, statistics are “made up,” and this passes muster; here on the SD, you need more. It’s not acceptable to make up numbers, and when you do, you almost always get called on it, as you were here. I agree that the Pit ought to have a looser standard of accuracy than, say, GD, but in the end they’re both part of a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance - a mission not remotely enhanced by making up numbers in lieu of actual facts.

From Straight Dope Conventions where women are groped whether they like it or not…

Did I miss a bulletin? When did this happen?

[The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun]

Mswas, if this board is so filled with “ignorant pricks” as you put it, why on Earth do you keep coming here?

[Shodan]

Now I could probably come up with some complicated math formula to confuse you into believing my statistics were somehow more valid than the guy who just made his up on the message board, but I’m not going to yank your chain.

You are the guy who made his up on the message board you chucklehead. And “yanking our chain” is pretty much exactly what you tried to do.

Is that honestly how you think it works? That people simply make things up out of thin air, and then try to confuse everyone into believing them? If you do believe that, what the hell are you doing on the SDMB?