Proud of our nat'l/ethnic heritages; should we equally be ashamed of the BAD stuff??

[kevlaw]

@DCnDC

National/ethnic/cultural pride, the way I see it, is stupid and nonsensical.

This (and other comments like it) made me think of Bones (in the TV series of the same name) where she is continually dismissing human emotions like love, jealousy, pride and so on because they are stupid and nonsensical. She doesn’t understand why she is the only rational person around.

I take pride in my nation’s history and achievements (both my native country’s and my adopted country’s). I still shiver at Henry V’s Agincourt speech and am filled with awe at the “We hold these truths…” preamble. I feel entitled to reflect in their glow.

I am also ashamed of slavery and the indian genocides and plenty of other things in my nations’ histories.

But ethnic pride…stupid and nonsensical.

[MrDibble]

@Cyningablod

But doesn’t that by logical extension mean that we can’t really be proud of the good deeds of our ancestors, either?

Basically, Yes. IMO, You can only *legitimately *be proud of things you, yourself, have done, or people you personally associate with and thus have, in some way, helped achieve their success (in some tiny measure), like a partner or child.

That’s kinda my whole question here: Why are we justified in being proud of our Constitution and our Emancipation Proclamation, for example, if we had nothing to do with those?

You can be proud of those only in as much as you work today to sustain those ideals e.g working for continued democracy in your own and other countries, or supporting Amnesty Int. and other peace organisations.

Isn’t it hypocritical to “pick and choose” which parts of our past, we acknowledge and talk about?

I think so. I mean, I’m quite chuffed at the Khoe-khoen part of my heritage, tiny as it is, because they were a fascinating people who never got up to much offensive in the world.

But actually, a larger part of my ancestry is Dutch, French, Swedish, Malay and English, and I should (and am starting to) embrace those too, both the good (culture, etc) and the bad (Empires), much more than I usually do.

[Der_Trihs]

@Cyningablod

*If we are going to celebrate and take pride in our ethnic/national heritages, does that mean we must also “carry the guilt” for our ancestors’ wicked deeds? *

Yes, which is why I don’t do it. Celebrating the good stuff and ignoring the bad gives you a distorted idea of what the group you are celebrating is actually like. Which is very dangerous, especially if the group in question has any power.

[Chen019]

There is NOTHING AT ALL inherently “better”, “smarter”, “stronger”, or whatever, about the English or the French (or the Caucasian Europeans in general) than anyone else, anywhere in the world. Those who carry their cultural pride too far, into the area of supremacism, are only discrediting themselves and their peoples.

You believe there are zero group differences despite groups following divergent evolutionary paths over 50,000 years? That is interesting.

Do you think western culture is superior to what the Taleban practice?

[Der_Trihs]

@Chen019

You believe there are zero group differences despite groups following divergent evolutionary paths over 50,000 years? That is interesting.

Except that they’ve done no such thing. And more to the point; it doesn’t matter if there are “zero” differences; just if they are signifcant ones. And even more to the point, people have been mixing their genes like mad for the last few centuries.

@Chen019

Do you think western culture is superior to what the Taleban practice?

Depends; what part of “Western Culture”? Nazism? Or the ACLU?

You are trying to compare a specific extreme group with a very broad and vague cultural catagory.

[Chen019]

Except that they’ve done no such thing. And more to the point; it doesn’t matter if there are “zero” differences; just if they are signifcant ones. And even more to the point, people have been mixing their genes like mad for the last few centuries.

Not really. Take a look at the genome maps.

Represent each individual human by their DNA sequence. When aggregated, they cluster into readily identifiable groups. This has been known for 40 years now, although the technology and methods of analysis continue to improve. Below are results from 1966, 1978 and 2008.

Genetic clustering: 40 years of progress

From the conclusions of the Risch paper (Am. J. Hum. Genet. 76:268–275, 2005):

… A recent study (Rosenberg et al. 2002) examined 377 autosomal micro-satellite markers in 1,056 individuals from a global sample of 52 populations and found significant evidence of genetic clustering, largely along geographic (continental) lines. Consistent with prior studies, the major genetic clusters consisted of Europeans/West Asians (whites), sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians, Pacific Islanders, and Native Americans. ethnic groups living in the United States, with a discrepancy rate of only 0.14%.

As, Hsu comments: *This clustering is a natural consequence of geographical isolation, inheritance and natural selection operating over the last 50k years since humans left Africa.
*

Metric on the space of genomes and the scientific basis for race

Harpending says there are provocative implications from the study, published online Monday, Dec. 10 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:

“We aren’t the same as people even 1,000 or 2,000 years ago,” he says, which may explain, for example, part of the difference between Viking invaders and their peaceful Swedish descendants. “The dogma has been these are cultural fluctuations, but almost any Temperament trait you look at is under strong genetic influence.”

“Human races are evolving away from each other,” Harpending says. “Genes are evolving fast in Europe, Asia and Africa, but almost all of these are unique to their continent of origin. We are getting less alike, not merging into a single, mixed humanity.” He says that is happening because humans dispersed from Africa to other regions 40,000 years ago, “and there has not been much flow of genes between the regions since then.”

http://www.unews.utah.edu/p/?r=120607-1

Examples of some of the recent sweeps discussed here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/science/26human.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/science/08cnd-brain.html

Depends; what part of “Western Culture”? Nazism? Or the ACLU?

Secular democracy for starters.

[Marley23]

@Chen019

You believe there are zero group differences despite groups following divergent evolutionary paths over 50,000 years? That is interesting.

This thread is not about genetics, Chen019. Please drop this hijack or start a new thread.

[Chen019]

Ok, I’ll drop it, back to the main topic:

Proud of our nat’l/ethnic heritages; should we equally be ashamed of the BAD stuff??

If we are going to celebrate and take pride in our ethnic/national heritages, does that mean we must also “carry the guilt” for our ancestors’ wicked deeds? Is there a kind of logical “carry-over” of sorts, from our respective “bragging points” into the things that we really would prefer not to acknowledge?

Does my pride in the accomplishments and culture of the English people, for example, logically entail that I should also be ashamed of their traditions of imperialism and slaveholding? Is it inconsistent to uphold and praise certain aspects of one’s people/culture, while downplaying or ignoring the negative aspects?

I could provide other illustrations, but you get the idea.

I suppose in the interest of beginning an actual debate, per se, I should take a position. So I’ll argue for the affirmative; I do in fact think that we need to acknowledge and possibly in some way “atone for” our ancestors’ evil behaviours, for two reasons:

First, acknowledging, accepting, and understanding history–allhistory–helps to ensure that the bad parts won’t be repeated; and second, it’s just more intellectually consistent to take the bad with the good.

You’re making it sound like some kind of therapy “accept, acknowledge” etc. I think you should certainly be aware of history, and aim to understand the facts as much as possible. It’s natural to some extent identify with your ancestors and in some cultures it is very much a part of who they are.

Whakapapa