Er, I meant being vegetable-free, not “begin vegetable-free”.
You know what’s the worst part about eating a vegetable?
Putting her back in the wheelchar when you’re finished…
Zank you! I be here all ze week!
Yer pal,
Satan
BAD SATAN! No souls! Back to your pit!
I realize this is just more anecdotal evidence, but I dispute this “princess and pea” effect. Some time after I went vegetarian (15 years ago), I ordered what I thought was a meatless pizza in a restaurant. It arrived at my table with sausage on it. I had never heard that accidentally eating meat would make vegetarians sick, and I assumed I could just pick the sausage pieces off. Apparently I didn’t get all of them, though, and the next day I had dreadful stomach cramps. Only then did I learn this reaction is common among vegetarians.
I originally tried to post this three days ago and got a “board is down message”. If, as soon as I post it, the CGI gets its act together and finds my original post, I apologize in advance.
I, myself, have never been able to understand how anyone who has chosen to become a vegetarian for moral reasons could ever fall off the wagon, period. I don’t think that there is any middle ground here–if you think that eating animal flesh is OK, than there is no sin. Alternitivly, it seems like if you think that eating animal flesh is wrong, you would have to think it was VERY wrong: it could never be “sorta bad” or something one “sorta trys to avoid” for moral reasons. So when I see people who claim to be vegitarians out of sympathy for animals intentionally eat any meat at all, I tend to think that their moral conviction does not run very deep. On the other hand, if you eat a vegitarian diet for health reasons, occasionally having a hot dog at the ball game makes sense–and in fact, I think that if a person eats a vegitarian diet all year but indulges in Mom’s turkey at Thanksgiving, they are not being dishonest when they describe themselves as a vegitarian–unless they are saying or implying that vegitarianism is a moral choice for them, and insinuating that meat eaters are less moral.
Good post, Manda! At the risk of being called a “sockpuppet”, I agree!
As someone who doesn’t like to eat meat, I’m annoyed as anyone at self righteous hypocrites who tell me what to do. Personally, I think that even the folks that follow a strict diet should be a little more calm about the affair and stop projecting the image of vegetarians as evangelists.
I would like to add to the anecdotal evidence that bile is used in the digestion of fats and that your body stops producing as much when you lower your fat intake. Hence, a vegetarian can cheat with a little chicken or fish, but fatty red meat will make them ill. I’ve experienced this before and hope to never again.
Johnny Angel: More anectdotal evidence, but… When I was first becoming wholeheartedly Veg, I still had a weakness for BBQ. I’m in the South, and BBQ is a Ritual. I found that at first, I could tolerate it, but the further I got from meat eating, the more a bit of meat affected my system. Psychologically, I’m not a militant sort. But, as I’ve become more strictly vegetarian- in Mississippi, this ain’t easy- I find that eating meat, usually during a social event, gives me the runs for two days. For the past five years, I don’t even do the social grace of what’s offered, cause it messes my system up so bad. Perhaps the variable here is that I have room for, at least, the social thing, but it’s not worth it. So I don’t think the “princess” analogy is apt in my case.
For what it’s worth, I’ve also cut out most processed foods, and find that when I do eat em, usually on the road, I get an incredible headache. I’m not a hypochondriac, I’ve just found that the longer you do without this stuff, the more it affects you when you do eat it.
I think some people mistake the term “vegetarian” (at least the way I mean it) as some philosophy, a way of life. It doesn’t mean that, not exclusively. I don’t think Vegetarian Times meant it that way exclusively when they did that article (several years ago) about some “unconventional” vegetarians - one worked in leather, I think, another was a furrier. Obviously their vegetarianism was a dietary choice only - had nothing to do with their philosophy about animals. Yet Vegetarian Times acknowleged them as vegetarians. Because they ate no animal flesh. That’s all they needed to qualify for the label.
The “militant” vegetarians who try to tell other people what the eat, what is moral to eat, are not speaking for all vegetarians. That’s not what vegetarianism is always about, for all of us. It’s a diet. A DIET. It’s about what you eat. Not about why you eat it. At all. Sure, everyone has a reason why they are veggie, but there can be many different reasons for the diet choice.
I’m sorry to sound anal, but if a person has a plan to eat meat, even if it’s just “once in a great while”, then they aren’t really vegetarian. They could be called “almost vegetarian”, it could be said that they eat vegetarian for months on end, but if they know that they are going to eat meat in the future, and keep on eating it when they feel they want to, even on rare intervals, then they are not strictly vegetarian. It’s like an “out”, to know that you aren’t always going to have to adhere to the diet. It’s not the same as actually NOT eating animal flesh, ever. And that’s what a vegetarian is.
I’m not trying to be mean. It isn’t like I think there is anything wrong with someone deciding they want to eat turkey for Thanksgiving, or have a hot dog at the ball game. Bully for them, I am not judging them. But it isn’t the same as just NEVER eating any animal flesh. There is nothing so precious, or cherished about the vegetarian label that people must be called it. If they aren’t strictly a veggie, they aren’t. They don’t qualify for the label.
And, I have to add, it does matter to me when a “almost veggie” (who eats meat just once in a great while) proclaims they are veggie. It “muddies the water” about what a vegetarian is, like I mentioned previously. And then people get confused and think all vegetarians can eat meat “just this once”.
So if a Christian sins once, he is no longer a christian? If a politician tells the truth once, is he no longer a politician? If I’m on a low fatorsodium or whatever diet, and I splurge once, am I no longer on that diet, even if I go back & be good?
I would say that someone who for their health’s sake goes on a meat-free diet, but “sins” and then repents, is still a vegitarian.
If the title “vegitarian” has no clout or importance or status attached to it, then I don’t see why it would bother you if someone called themselves one even though they ate meat once a year. Obviously, such a person is not eating meat “whenever they want to”; many other times they may really want to indulge, but they do not for heath reasons. If I followed such a diet, I would probably refer to myself as a vegitarian to my friends, co-workers, etc., as the simplest way for them to understand my dietary prefrences. As a matter of fact, I can even see conceling the fact that I ate turkey on Thanksgiving: otherwise I would be bombarded with “Well, if you eat turkey on Thanksgiving, can’t you have BBQ for Mary’s birthday?” and such every other week. I just can’t see such a person as a hypocrite or a liar, as long as they are upfront about the fact that their dietary choices are about health, not morals, and that while they might sneer at their friends for being fatty pigs, they are not going to sneer at them for being murderers.
I also want to make clear that I am talking about someone who eats meat very rarely–once a year, or only under extrordinary circumstances. It is like homosexuality–having gay sex once in a while dosen’t make you gay, but if you are doing it every week. . . .
If a Christian plans to sin, once in a while, then they are not living up to their Christian faith intirely. It’s the planning part…Christians sin all the time, because of a weakness, it isn’t like they are proud of it, or they have a schedule for it. (Like, “On Jan. 2 I’ll cheat on my wife, then I’ll repent and not do it again until next year.”) That would make them a hypocrite.
We slip, have a lapse - it isn’t the same as planning to do something. Besides, the person who has it in their agenda to eat meat once in a while isn’t thinking that there is anything wrong with it (and I’m not saying that there is) but that isn’t what a vegetarian does. A vegetarian diet does not include turkey once a year. Otherwise, Vegetarian Times would include turkey recipes in their November issue.
If a person wants to eat vegetarian almost all the time, and “fall off the wagon” once a year to eat turkey, they can consider themselves “vegetarian” for most of that year. So yeah, it could be said that they eat vegetarian for months, many months on end. But, if such a person were to clarify their “once a year turkey agenda” to a true meat-will-never-pass-my-lips vegetarian, I’m sure the meat-will-never-pass-my-lips veggie not consider that as a true vegetarian diet. Otherwise, like I said, there would be Thanksgiving turkey recipes in Vegetarian Times.
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Another few thoughts before I head out the door:
Comparing Christianity to vegetarianism is rather imperfect. Christianity is a way of life, it involves every facet of a person. Vegetarianism is just a diet - it’s about choosing what to put on your plate 3 times a day. Not nearly as complex, not nearly as many chances to “lapse” or “fall off the wagon” with it. If vegetarianism were really, really hard, and complex, with many intracacies (sp?) there would be very few vegetarians. But there are plenty…because it’s pretty cut-and-dried. Don’t eat animal flesh. Vegetarians made the choice to give up Thanksgiving turkey, and that baseball hotdog, and all of it. It isn’t hard if you want to do it. Hell, I’m a pig, I love to eat, and I did it. How hard can it be? 
If a person doesn’t want to give up meat entirely, they aren’t vegetarian. Simple as that.
Also, vegetarianism is a unique diet. Pretty well-established. Many vegetarian cookbooks, magazines, organizations. How many “low sodium diet” magazines are out there, or organizations? Not nearly as many as with vegetarianism. If someone wants to fudge a bit on their low-sodium diet, there will be few low-sodiumites out there who will notice the lapse, or comment on it. Not so with vegetarianism, as you can already tell.
What about people that are vegetarians because of moral reasons, and are also pro-choice? Are they hypocrites? Is an unfinished human being less alive than a finished animal? Is supporting another person’s right to kill different from actually paticipating in a killing?
I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. That is to say, I would have a very hard time agreeing with someone’s choice to have an abortion, but I don’t think it should be illegal. I also don’t think meat should be illegal.
–
I have over 2000 posts, dammit! Show some respect.
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O p a l C a t
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I am pro-choice, and a vegetarian. The two viewpoints really have nothing to do with each other. “Pro-choice” means (in my case, at least) “Whether or not a woman chooses to continue a pregnancy should be between her, her physician, her god, and her partner (if he is still involved). It isn’t my business, your business, or the government’s business.” “Pro-choice” does not equal “pro-abortion”. “Vegetarian” means (to me) “I don’t eat meat, because it feels wrong, to me. I don’t care whether you choose to eat meat or not.” (“Meat” including fish, poultry, and anything else that once moved around on it’s own)
Adressing the original post, “psuedo-vegetarians” annoy me, because they make life more difficult for those of us who really never do eat meat, in any circumstance. I get very tired of people who question my choice, or try to cajole me into eating fish or poultry, because they know someone who calls themselves vegetarian, yet still eats those things. If I haven’t eaten any type of meat for 20 years, I’m not likely to change that just because someone who does calls themselves “vegetarian”. 
The Ryan wrote:
Um, they only eat hamburgers made from aborted calves?
DavisMcDavis said,
Plants show a direct response to stimuli in a manner pretty similar to the way that animals respond to pain. If scientists eventually call the reactions that plants have to external stimuli pain, will you stop eating plants? What, exactly, is the definition of pain that you’re using here?
So you only eat rocks or something? Plants move around on their own, they just don’t move quickly. Watch the discovery channel one day, you can see time-lapse photography of plants moving. Maybe you should clarify your statement a bit, to something like ‘I don’t eat anything that moves around very quickly’. Of course, someone then might try to serve you a sloth, but there are always problems with self-righteous proclamations.
Of course, that’s the funny thing; if someone had a sane response to me asking them what they eat, then I’d come up with something acceptable to them for dinner. If someone responded with irrational rants as your style of vegetarian is prone to, I’d fix steaks for everyone else and toss you a bag of chips for your dinner, if I didn’t actually recsind your dinner invitation on the grounds that sanctimonious hypocritical types make poor dinner guests.
Kevin Allegood,
“At least one could get something through Trotsky’s skull.”
- Joseph Michael Bay
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Johnny Angel:
**oldscratch wrote:
The problems isn’t that I don’t have enough anecdotal evidence, it’s that the evidence is anecdotal. [vegetarians getting sick from eating meat].
We are forgetting that eating habits are just that: socially learned and reinforced practices. When I ate meat, I enjoyed the smell of bacon in the fry pan. Today, after being vegetarian for almost 10 years, the same smell or any cooking of meat is extremely unpleasant and borders on making me nauseous. However, I can’t change the world to suit me so I find ways to deal with the smells: avoid them as much as possible or tune them out. For meateaters, the smell of cooking meat is half the pleasure but the same smell is repulsive to nonmeateaters. These are not absolutes or universal truisims or…anecdotal notes. They are culturally reinforced responses to the same stimuli. Eating habits are cultural in nature.