Public Education woes...

tomndebb - you’re right. Not only did I phrase that badly, but I also missed my own point. What primarily concerns me is what is covered under the benefits umbrella. Not just medical, dental and so forth, but retirement packages that are based on the last two years’ salaries, which are routinely inflated when an employee is ready to retire (it is standard practice to increase a teacher’s salary by 20% twice in his or her last year in the district); union dictates that insist a teacher be paid an hourly wage above and beyond his salary for patrolling the parking lot after school, and further insist that there MUST be a teacher placed in that capacity no matter how many parent volunteers there may be to do that job, and so on.

My other complaint is that the budget contains graphs that illustrate what the district is paying in salaries and in benefits in two different pie slices… then the teachers and administrators use these graphs to point out that their salaries are only 33% of the budget. To someone who’s not paying strict attention to the way the graphs are drawn, it’s very easy to make the assumption that the teachers are not being paid what they’re worth. If you look at the graphs and listen to the teachers talk, it seems we are only using 33% of our budget to pay for teachers, when that’s patently not true. The bennies aren’t being figured in, which means the percentage cited is inaccurate.

And by extension fuck our future. Those kids are part of our society, like it or not, and represent the future of our community. We could cast them aside and pay the price later on down the road, but I know I don’t want to live in that kind of world.

And remember we’re talking about kids younger than eighteen here. How many bad choices have we all made while that age or younger? Where would we be if society hadn’t given us a second chance? In a handbasket I dare say, rapidly headed someplace hot.

Simbelmyne, before I became a teacher I was a police officer for six years. I dealt with the kids who got thrown away. I chased them, fought them, was shot at by them, arrested them, cut them breaks, held their hands when they cried and hurt, and loaded them into ambulances and coroner’s vans. The reason I became a teacher was because I saw first hand what happened when these kids didn’t get a good education or were abandoned by the system. Trust me, it’s much better and nicer to get to them in a classroom than in any manner I ever got to them on the streets.

If I reach even one kid a year as a public school teacher, just one, I’ve earned every penny of my overly generous :rolleyes: salary.

Just out of curiosity, and this is in no way an attack, what have you done, Simbelmyne and shep proudfoot for these kids, their teachers, or your community?

Excellent points, LifeOnWry. Another poster complained about the DC school system. I have a cousin who teaches at a public school in DC; her previous job was at a private school in North Carolina. Her private school students came to school well-rested and well-fed. They had been read to from babyhood. Their parents were very involved with the school.

Most of her public school students are the children of immigrants. English is not their first language. The majority of them are in the free-lunch program. Their parents work two and three jobs, and don’t have time to volunteer at the school. Is it any wonder that the kids in the private school did better than her public school students?

Yet again, libertarian logic at it’s finest. I’m a greedy bastard and to hell with the rest of ya’s. That’s definitely a productive system that will benefit future generations. :rolleyes:

Let’s see: My kids (1st & 5th grade) had 16 days off for winter break, MLK day off, Pres. Day weekend is now a 4 day holiday, had a week off for spring break last week and next week another 4 day weekend. Teachers in MN teach about 175 days per year. They do not attend conferences in the summer and after a few years they should know the curriculum so very little prep is required before class. Average salaries are in the 38-42K range and with benefits it comes to about 59K. To get a raise you can go back to school and get another degree at tax payers expense. All classes have 1-2 parents helping out, grading papers and doing other tasks for free. By the way, my 5th grader receives about 4.5 hours of instruction per day. Almost 50% of our taxes go to eduction and we still don’t have enough money for schools. What is wrong with this picture?

In my school district, beginning teachers are paid around 45,000 per year for for 9 months work. Plus benefits.

This is for for a 4 1/2 day work week, as Wednesday is a short day.

They also get all the major holidays off, plus 2 weeks off at Christmas, and 2 weeks off in the spring. MLK day is a day off, however, Columbus day a mandatory school day. Apparently the government school officials think that MLK is more important than Columbus. Ditto Cesar Chavez day. Cesar Chavez day is celebrated, but Columbus day is ignored in my local government schools.

There are also parent volunteers in class, so the teachers do not perform their jobs all by themselves. They have help from nonpaid volunteers.

Class sizes are down from the traditional norm of 30 kids per class to around 20 kids per class, yet test scores are still lousy. All the classrooms have computers in them ( at taxpayer expense), yet a large percentage of the students are functionally illiterate.

What they do once they are expelled my become your problem if they decide to go breaking into your house while you’re at work, when they either should be at school, or working themselves but are unable to get a satisfying job due to a poor education.

If these kids have such a bad home life which leads to their violent, dangerous and abusive behaviour, how is taking them out of school and putting them into that home life 24/7 going to give them any chance to stop being violent, dangerous and abusive?
You are writing them off before ever giving them a chance to change. And you’re being extremely blinkered if you think this change is going to happen over night. But just because they don’t have a perfect home life does that mean we should automatically assume they do not have the potential to become valued members of the community if they were given the chance?

Yes, there will always be a need for “fast food workers” as shep so delightfully put it. But that doesn’t mean that the “drop-outs” are gonna jump at the chance to do it. Just because they don’t fit in perfectly at school doesn’t make them low inteligence or ambitionless.
Besides, wouldn’t you rather have someone who could count and had learnt how to read serving you your BigMac and Fries?

Linguini and Hermann Cheruscan, if you don’t mind my asking, have you ever actually taught anything? You seem to have very little idea what the job entails. Honestly, I wasn’t sure whether to laugh or bang my head against the wall when I read this:

Every class is different, and what works with one group of kids may not work with another. Besides, good teachers seek to improve on the way they taught the class last year. Even if none of that were true, the Powers that Be have been known to change curricula and textbooks from year to year.

And those volunteers you mention? Guess who has to supervise them and tell them what to do? That’s right, the teacher. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great to have people from the community involved in the schools, but it doesn’t necessarily make the teacher’s workload any lighter.

Even under the best of circumstances, teachers spend at least as much time on class prep, grading, and paperwork as they do in front of the class. Usually more. This is not a part-time job by any stretch of the imagination, and $45,000 does not strike me as a particularly generous salary for a full-time professional.

You touch on something very important to me right now, FP. As I probably mentioned, I’m part of a parent advocacy group in my district, and one of the more frustrating things we’ve encountered is the fact that teachers and parents have very different ideas about what constitutes parent involvement. I’ve found that MOST of the teachers I’ve personally spoken with would prefer that parent involvement be handled outside the classroom, mainly for the reason cited above. MOST of the parents I’ve spoken to are willing to work in the classroom, but complain that the teachers don’t effectively guide them in what’s expected of them.

One of the main priorities of our group right now is to define “parent involvement” and determine how best to implement it so that we are not an intrusive or distracting element.

  1. Pardon my coding.
  2. I wasn’t actually finished when I hit submit.

I meant to add that we are working from National PTA standards to put together a parent involvement handbook. We’re trying to get the teachers’ union to help us with this, but we’re so far having limited success.

I’m a teacher, and as I am fond of saying, the only thing I love better than gong to work in the morning is going home in the afternoon.

It’s really difficult to compare teaching to a “normal” job: not least because it isn’t clear what a “normal” job is like: I’m working with a vague picture of some office type environment where people do things with computers for 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year.

Teaching definitely has advantages: there is a lot of time off, and (in some districts at least) you get good benefits (though this varies: I’m in a large urban school district, and our health benefits suck: my husband has better benefits as a grad student!). Not least among the advantages is that you are doing something that truly needs doing. There’s also something to be said for a job where every year you get to start afresh.

However, there are real and profound challenges found in teaching that do not (typically) exist in the corporate world (though that can be said for many jobs). First and foremost, it is hard to overstate just how grueling it is to be on for six to seven hours a day (not counting planning). Teaching is brutal. It’s physically brutal, because you never sit down, and, more importantly, it is psychologically brutal. You’re in this room full of children and you have to be The Adult for every moment, the focus of attention every instant. Trying to keep 30 all-very-different people on task and learning and interested and be attuned to their needs and tensions and make sure you weigh every word and gesture for anything that might be seen as inappropriate or counterproductive is simply exhausting.

Add to this the difficulty in completing the business of normal living–doctors appointments, DMV visits, house inspections, cable installation–because in order to come into work an hour late or leave an hour early you have to take a personal day (or half day, if your district allows), arrange a sub (if you can get one), make sub plans, and deal with the aftermath of those sub plans, and you have to live with the cruel little fact of a 25 minute lunch that you can never, ever start a minute early or stop a minute late.

As far as planning time goes, the various duties and the mounds of paperwork required just to keep the school running eat up virtually all of that: waiting in line for the one god damn copy machine for 135 teachers eats up the rest. The grading, recording, and planning for the four different subjects I teach have to be done before and after school.

There are some teachers who manage to construct things so that their lives are easy: they are shitty teachers who use the same overheads and worksheets year after year, handing them out and taking them up like clockwork. Their kids don’t learn anything, but the teachers don’t care. I dare say you have people like this in the corporate world, who manage to do just enough to make it more trouble than it is worth to fire them, or who manage to do one vital little thing that provides job security. Hell, the boards are full of people who post all day from work because where they work, they CAN. That doesn’t mean that all corporate jobs are easy, or all corporate people don’t really have to do anything.

In the end, you can list all the benefits and all the challenges of teaching, and whose to say if summers off are canceled out by 25 minute lunches? There’s no way to do it. It seems to me that the only thing that has meaning at all is that we do have a teacher shortage, and it seems to me that if teachers were radically over paid, if the job were really disproportionately cushy, there’d be a LOT more competition to be a teacher. It’s hardly a secret job. The fact that there is a critical need for teachers, and the fact that there is a high attrition rate among teachers suggests that it is not particularly MORE desirable than the working world. On the other hand, the fact that there are many teachers out there suggests that it isn’t hell on earth, either.

My former neighbors fit this discussion. They were constantly in trouble in school, and their mother, sick of being called to the office, said she was going to “homeschool” them.

In reality, she didn’t. She just let them do whatever they wanted. They were druggies, dealers, you name it. They eventually lost their house and had to move out. Thank god.

At least when they were in school, they weren’t having come downs and screaming fits. Or throwing crap at our car.

but I never used that as an excuse to prey on other students. I managed to graduate with highest honors without getting involved in drugs or gangs, though they were all around me.

>What they do once they are expelled my become your problem if they decide to go breaking into your house while you’re at work, when they either should be at school, or working themselves but are unable to get a satisfying job due to a poor education.

If these kids have such a bad home life which leads to their violent, dangerous and abusive behaviour, how is taking them out of school and putting them into that home life 24/7 going to give them any chance to stop being violent, dangerous and abusive?<

The point that everyone is missing is that these gorillas should not be allowed to make life hell for the normal kids who actually work hard at their studies and go to school to learn, not to be attacked. If these kids can’t keep their hands to themselves, then they should be “educated” in a safe, secure facility better equipped and staffed to deal with their issues. All I’m hearing is bleeding hearts for the bad kids, and no sympathy for their victims, the good students. Should we just scare them away from their chance for an education because they are too terrified of the thugs to attend school? I say help the kids who are studying and trying to get an education FIRST.

If any of them decide to break into my house, whether GED or Grad student, they get a 12 gauge education in the face. Growing up in tough conditions doesn’t bestow the right to be a predator. If they can’t get a job because they didn’t study or got themselves expelled and have no education, whose fault it that?

Blame the parents, the environment, poverty, society, anything but expect the student to be responsible for his own actions.

No, the point is, if they at least have a shot at education, they might not turn out that way.

:rolleyes:

Linguini and Hermann Cheruscan, where the hell are you guys from? My boyfriend’s mom has been a teacher for about 13 years now, the last 6 as a SEARCH teacher (a program for advanced elementary students). She makes a whopping $29,500 a year! This includes the extra time she puts in for the Summer SEARCH program that lasts about a month. She may only be at her “office” from 9 to 3, but she sure as hell does a lot more work outside of the classroom than the 2 more hours needed to make it an “8 hour work day.” You also don’t seem to realize that while the students may only be going to school for 175 days, the teachers spend more time there getting ready, doing paperwork, turning in grades, going to meetings, going to seminars, and fighting for better supplies for their students.

Classroom size has swelled from about 20 students to 30 students. There aren’t even enough books to go around in some cases. My sister’s high school chemistry class doesn’t have enough lab equipment even for pairs of students working together, so they all have to work in threes. And we’re in one of the best districts around here!

State funding for education here in Oklahoma is pathetic. This year, my school district has decided to fire all teachers with only one year of experience to save money next year. So, no matter how good some of these teachers may be, all 150+ of them are losing their jobs! In a nearby school district, all teachers with 3 years of experience or less are going to be gone by the end of this year.

I don’t know how figures are calculated elsewhere, but here in Oklahoma, the average teacher’s salary that is reported to the newspapers INCLUDE all the administrators and higher-ups involved in education. These bastards make almost $200,000 each. I don’t know any teachers who make over $35,000, but because of the extremely high salaries of those in charge, no one realizes that teachers really don’t make as much as they need.

Well, it is true that teacher salaries vary from State to State. But being the Oklahoma has a relatively low cost of living, wouldn’t a $29,000 teaching job there be worth about $40,000 in higher cost States? Also, I’d be willing to bet that the teachers making $29,000 in Oklahoma are among the highest paid workers in their local communities. So I would venture to say that its all relative.

$29,000 is certainly NOT enough to put teachers among the highest paid workers here, and it is definitely not enough to support a family if teaching is the only source of income. I have run into about 1/2 of my old teachers working part-time after school at Walmart, Target, Hobby Lobby, Michaels, etc, in order to make a decent amount to pay the bills and feed and clothe their children. In 1999, the average household made a little over $40,000. It is indeed all relative Hermann, but that is not an excuse for the teachers to be paid so low they can’t support their families without getting another job.

BTW, second jobs after school, NOT summer jobs when they “have nothing else to do.”

Fretful:
I teach two 2 classes per week, 50 weeks a year. Plus, I facilitate a full day workshop once a month. I am not diss’ing teachers, I am just sick of their whining. I agree that in many states teachers are under compensated, but not in Minnesota.

:smack: Why did I open this thread? I knew I wasn’t going to like what I’d see.And I really don’t have time for bullshit. :mad:

[celestina fingering her virtual paddle]

Hermann Cheruscan, the perspectives you have put forth so far in this Pit thread are illogical, reflect a serious lack of research into teacher salaries and the specific requirements–both official and unofficial–for teachers, and quite frankly have given me a headache. :mad: You ought to be ashamed of yourself! You ought to educate yourself on a topic before you open your big trap and sound off a lot of bullshit online, and certainly as a parent who has 3 kids in public school, you ought to educate yourself on what is going on with teachers. Now, I’m going to tell you what the worst public education woe is. It’s folks like you, folks–this can include education administrators–who don’t know what in the holy hell they are talking about and who certainly have not spent day one in a classroom trying to tell teachers what they need to do!

Now, for homework I want you to go do some research. You may interview a teacher–Hey, and let’s make this interesting. Interview one or more of your children’s teachers–and find out what exactly s/he does to prepare for classes, how much time it takes to grade papers, how much time is required from him/her to sit in meetings, sponsor school clubs for students, schedule and hold parent-teacher conferences, how much time it takes to deal with students who have personal issues outside the confines of the classroom that s/he nevertheless has to deal with, how much effort it takes to try to teach a curriculum, say like science, *with no science equipment and outdated textbooks–whoo, don’t get me started on this–*how much more time it takes to educate a class when you have no support from the administration and when parents don’t discipline their kids and instill in them a sense of respect for learning, and the list goes on.

Once, you’ve interviewed a few teachers, then I want you to go to the library, or go online and find out the range of teacher salaries–they do vary, you know–based on number of years in the system, the number and type of degrees that a teacher may hold, where in the state they are teaching. There’s quite a discrepancy in beginning teacher salaries and salaries for teachers who’ve been in the trenches for years. There are discrepancies based also on whether or not a teacher is teaching in a socioeconomically affluent area or a poor one. Those nice little averages you’ve seen are just that averages, but they do not reflect what teachers actually do make. To limit your search, focus on one state, perhaps the one your children attend school in.

One thing I’d love for you to do in addition is to figure out how society is going to deal with the students who get left out of an education if we abolish public education. How much will it cost taxpayers in the long run to have to deal with the masses of morons who’ve become unproductive citizens and who most likely will prey on the productive citizens? But, I think that this is too difficult right now, and you’ve got your work cut out for you with the task I’ve already assigned.

Now once you’ve done your research, get out a piece of paper and a pencil and start doing some math. Tally up the total number of hours for classroom prep, classroom time, and all those official and unofficial duties teachers must attend to. I’m sure there are plenty of folks who’d love to hear what you’ve learned. And before you get an attitude, I’ll say this: Don’t you owe your children the benefit of a parent who is engaged in and knowledgable about issues in a public education system that directly affects them? Do this research for your children.

Sorry that I can’t stay and chat. I know that you and some others think us overpaid, lazy teachers have just gobs of time to sit on the porch with our mint juleps and gossip, but I’ve got to go prepare my classes and deal with all the committee work and other bullshit I don’t have time for and don’t get paid to do.

Bravo celestina!!!

I believe all teachers here deserve a hell of a lot more respect. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all that in this country, parents expect to be able to send their children to school for 6 hours a day and want the kids to be very smart and successful, but don’t give a damn about the teachers. Not only is the respect lacking from the parents, but it’s also lacking from the children. I don’t know what values are being taught in “typical” American homes, but it doesn’t seem to me like respect is one of them.

I realize that teachers work much harder and deal with much more than just the 6 hours a day, 175 days a year that children go to school. To all teachers, I want to say thank you for putting up with all the bullshit from the ignorant masses and for continually being an important figure in the lives of our children.