You know, I’ve already explained that there are no such things as “Fucking Mormons” (or, in this case, “Mormon Fucking”, whether or not colorful labels for female genitalia are attached). Anyway, please keep in mind that Mormons do not have sex.
Anyway…
I’m sure he’d be happy for suggestions for the next time. As Miss Sara’s (very excellent) example shows, “Good Samaritan’s” are looked down upon. I have no doubt that Sqrl’s first reaction was to rush in there and stop the shit from happening… but a rational and reasonable person simply cannot follow any whim (justified though they may be) that enters into their heads.
The Pit provides a venue for posting in frustration, anger, confusion, and several varieties of ennui, but never for posting in hatred.
Sqrl, your last post was over the line. Attacking a poster’s personal appearance is at best completely unnecessary. And the “worthless Mormon…” line was way too much.
This is an inherently emotional topic, but please try to channel those emotions into something less destructive than posting cheap attacks towards other posters.
This is one of the most idiotic, ignorant, and flat-out stupid posts I’ve yet run across here. I realize I haven’t been around for a terribly long time, but it still ranks right up there with Foreskin Jack telling everyone who’s had a circumcision that they’re freaks and anyone who has their child circumcised that the child will end up hating them. I stand in awe of your ability to sort out the facts from a second hand post from someone who was simply trying to vent about an tremendously upsetting experience. I do have just one question, however. Since you obviously see things in black and white, how in the hell do you color coordinate your wardrobe?
Sara has been courageous and kind enough to to share her story about what can happen if someone does intervene. I’ve got one myself, from the other side. I was walking through my own hometown one day a few years back. I hadn’t lived there in years, but was back visiting my parents and had to run down to pick something up at the store. I saw a woman going to town on her 6 year old son. She picked him up by the arm and spanked him, and then kept smacking him in the back of the head when he wouldn’t stop crying. She was giving him wallops hard enough to snap his head forward and damn near hit his chest.
I, being someone who tends to go into a blood rage at the idea of a child being hurt or abused stuck my nose in. I told her that I thought she was being excessive in her attempts at discipline. She whirld on me and started screaming like i was trying to cut her throat. She cursed and howled, telling me that it was none of my goddamn business what she did with her kid. She justified it by saying that he had to learn one way or the other and she was going to teach him manners, no matter what it took. She peppered the conversation with additional blows to the back of her son’s head because he still hadn’t quieted down sufficiently to please her. Maybe some of them were to prove a point to me, I don’t know. But at that point, I made a serious mistake. I told her that if I saw her pop him again, I was going to do the same thing to her. Ten seconds later she was up in my face and screaming even louder, which drew a crowd, which drew a cop. (It’s a very small town.)
When the cop got there she told him that I had threatened to beat the hell out of her for disciplining her kid in public. The only thing that kept me out of jail that night was the fact that I had grown up in the Town and the cop knew who I was, and knew I would never have said or done anything like that. The cop got her calmed down and told her that he’d take care of it, and fortunately he was able to mollify her.
After she was gone, I told him what the mother had been doing and he just shrugged and said that she had the right to discipline her kid the way she wanted. He then told me that if it had been anyone else, he would have had to take me in. I escaped a night in jail because I was the nephew of the minister of one of the three churches in town.
Things aren’t quite as clear-cut as you’d like them to be, PLG. SqrlCub explained at the end of his post why he didnt’ take any action, and personally, it’s hard to fault him for his decision. Child and Protective Services is (in most juristictions) so overwhelmed by cases where children are in danger of their life or serious injury that a report like that is probably not going to galvanize them into action. As Sara shows, sometimes intervention without any assurance of change in the situation is an even greater danger to the child than keeping your mouth shut. And my little story shows that things could have gotten very ugly for Sqrl wihtout ever changing the situation for the children one iota.
The system sucks rocks, and I’m not defending it. I’m simply pointing out realistic scenarios in which shows your assinine attack on SqrlCub’s decsion to be the knee-jerk reaction of someone who hasn’t considered all the possible outcomes. I don’t know if you realize this, but you came across as a smug little snot, snuggled tight in your moral certainty and weilding your righeous anger at the infidels. Unfortunately, in this case, the infidels seem to have thought the situation through a little more clearly than you managed.
Anthracite, I actually hate PLG because she has been trolling around various threads of my own. I will not retract anything I say about her because it is how I feel. Nor will I commit any physical acts of violence against her.
HUGS to you Anthracite and everyone except PLG,
Sqrl
Just saw your post Alphagene, I know what the pit is for. I hope I don’t make your moderation job a chore.
Thank you Nacho, that is the exact reason why I didn’t do anything. I know how abusive families work which is why I knew not to do anything eventhough on paper it seems like a good idea. It reminds of my friend “Der Polack” whose father was a complete shit.
Anyway, “Der Polack” (which is what we all called him) had a younger brother and a 2 or three year old sister at the time we were friends (we were about 14) and one time when my friend Neil and I were over at his house the little girl came up to us and said, “Daddy was up to here last night” pointing to her belly. “Der Polack,” who incidently kept trying to get me to kill his father for reasons unbeknownst until then, told us that his father had been raping his sister (and probably him and his brother) since she was born. Originally she was hurt by it but eventually started “liking” it.
Anyway, Neil and I got out of there and called CPS on the father and were told flat out that nothing would happen because the kid was not in mortal peril. Well, that is not what we wanted to hear so we we called the police from a pay phone to anonomously report him. We watched the police come from Neil’s house to “Der Polacks’s” house and after about 30 minutes they left.
To make a long story short, “Der Polacks’s” nose was broken as well as many bruises. He ran away shortly thereafter and joined the Job Corp. “Der Polacks’s” brother was also severely beaten, as was the mother, and the little girl was raped vaginally and orally. (Possibly more but “Der Polack” wasn’t too graphic on the details before he left for the Job Corp.)
So, we called the police again without “Der Polacks” knowledge (we found out about the abuse the day after when he was in a cast since his mother took him to the doctors when the father was at work). Well, the police came again and they all lied about what happened. Luckily the father wasn’t there when the police got there or I think that most of them would be dead or more seriously injured. We were then told by the mother and “Der Polack” not to do it again because they didn’t know if they could take another beating like that.
This is how I know Nacho’s story is not too far out there. I have witnessed things like it at least secondhand. And this is also why I knew better to do anything. The kids didn’t seem to have any bruises and from my vantage point I couldn’t see any welts but I know if I would have said something or called the police they would have had them later if not something worse.
SqrlCub, you were in a very difficult situation, and one in which you were powerless. There was nothing you could safely do. If you had known who the ‘mother’ was, you could have reported her to protective services, which would in an ideal world trigger repeated visits and monitoring by the authorities. But since you didn’t, anything you could have done may have been met with increased violence against you and the children - particularly since she had some backup. I understand your frustration, but what you did (or didn’t do) wasn’t necessarily wrong. Many parents are abusive because it gives them power over someone, and in situations where that power is challenged (which would have been the case if you had confronted her), they will often increase the display of power over the weaker one. I hope, though, that this experience will strengthen your resolve to do what you can in situations where you can do something.
Slight hijack: It makes me crazy when people assume that ALL young parents abuse or neglect their children. I had my child when I was 18 and I don’t abuse or neglect him. I facilitate a support group for teen moms and while abuse/neglect is certainly a concern, in the time that this program has been run there has not been an incident of child abuse. My sister is a social worker, and (of course this is purely anecdotal) the majority of the abuse cases she sees are 20-30 year old parents of multiple children living in poverty. I guess we could go on and on about the causes of abuse (stupidity, poverty, lack of support system, family history, etc), but rest assured, age of the parent is not always a factor. I know that any time parenting comes up in a thread, I jump to the defense of single, teen, or welfare moms, so maybe I’m defensive, but I felt this needed to be said.
MikeG - I admire your, uh, cojones. I’m just glad it turned out well for the girl and her mom.
Sqrl, there was nothing else you could have done. In those kinds of situations you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. But, if you don’t, at least you’re not damning the children along with you because of your interference. It’s an impossible decision.
Of course I think most decent people WANT to scoop up the hurt child and spirit them away to safety, but since that’s not real life you have to think about what’s best for the child. We have several first hand reports that Child Protective Service really can’t help. Putting the child in a foster home could put them in a worse situation then they are in now. Confronting the parent will only make them take it out even worse on the child and may put you in danger as well. Even if you call the police and by some miracle the parent gets arrested, he/she will be released shortly, and since you won’t be there to interfere this time you can only pray for the well being of the child upon the parent’s release. – What options are there really?
And, what about your own personal safety? If some jerk is going to beat his/her own child in public what’s going to stop them from beating the snot out of you? How do you know if he/she may be armed with more than a switch or a belt? It really is too risky to start with a violent person who is already on a roll.
Nacho, that was one of the most heart breaking, terrible, frightening, sickening stories I have ever heard. I didn’t know whether to cry or be sick, so I did both - and I only had to read it, not live it like you did. That anyone could have that much cruelty in them is absolutely terrifying to me. I can’t imagine that it’s an easy road overcoming a childhood like that to become the bright, wonderful person that you are today - kudos to you for making it
I know you didn’t post that for this, but I can’t help it {{{{{Nacho4Sara}}}}}.
I understand what you say you are feeling, SqrlCub. I’d like to explain my position more, just not on the board so as not to aggravate things. However, you do not show an e-mail listing. If you would like to understand where I am coming from, and care to, please e-mail me.
Gundy, I understand that not all young parents are irresponsible, but I think most of them are not mature enought to raise a child. My mother was only 17 when she had me, and I feel she did a damn fine job, but I think that she and youself are the exceptions to the rule. Most of the parents you speak of in the 20-30 group who live in poverty and have multiple children began having these kids when they were young. The largest numbers of under-age and young parents are in areas of poverty and low social conditions, and this part of the problem. Yes, it’s a BIG socio-political problem, and there is no clear cut solution. I think a lot of this is the results of the parents who raised these people, but then it becomes a “chicken or the egg” issue ( :eek: ).
Anyway, a hardy salute to you and your work with other young mothers. The world surely needs more responsible parents and someone to help them become such.
My quarrel is with people that assume I’m a subpar parent because I’m young without any evidence or prior knowledge. I can’t stand it when “young parent” is used to mean “incompetent parent” or “neglectful parent” or “stupid person”. I can’t stand it when someone describes an instance of poor behavior by a parent and then says, “well, she did look awfully young”…oh, you know. Being a young parent comes with a set of circumstances that are often likely to lead to abuse or neglect. One of those circumstances is societal disapproval. What I’m saying is that though there can be a correlation between too-early parenting and incidence of abuse, it doesn’t justify perpetuating a stereotype.
i too have witnessed this kind of shit and like you SQRL -i had to watch and do nothing because i figured that the kid would suffer more if i said something and got into it with the parent-i also got a rude response on one of my posts from that KNOW IT ALL a-hole pepperland, but i ignored her because i figured it was a no win situation with her-kinda like with the abusive parents-but your response was justified, in my opinion, because of the way she inferred that you were allowing that abuse to happen and were as bad as the abuser-
but why is it that scumbags (no not you pepperland) get away with this evil behavior? i saw a show a few years ago about some sick bastard who was abused as a kid, then abused and ended up killing his own 3 year old son-the maternal grandmother was interviewed and said she knew it was happening and tried to stop it but nothing would be done legally to stop this guy-she was crying on camera and i thought , she should have killed her son in law which would have saved her grandson-she probably would have gotten manslaughter and served a few years in prison, and she would be seen as a hero-sometimes i really wonder if we are indeed in hell here on earth because of things that happen to kids and that it is almost impossible to stop these monsters unless we take the law into our own hands-
i also saw a show about janet reno, before she was named attorney general, prosecuting some poor 14 year old kid in florida for abusing kids at a day care center where he worked after school-this kid was found innocent of all charges but went through hell because of her incompetence-
so we have monsters and we have the likes of janet reno-ya, i do believe we are in hell-
thanks for letting me vent-SQRL, you arent alone
Thanks to everyone for your kind words. I don’t really like to talk about all that, but sometimes it serves its purpose. I hate hearing someone (in this case, pepperlandgirl) attacking a person who had no control over the situation and who’s interference would not have made a bit of difference. IMHO, it’s wasting time attacking people who are innocent (in this case, Sqrl) that prevents effective change. Personally, I have no idea how to change the cycle of abuse in our society, in the same way I can’t fix poverty or violence, but heightening an already violent situation is certainly not the answer.
I didn’t mean to make anyone upset with my post. Honestly, it’s 10 years in the past and I don’t remember a lot of it anyway. It rears its ugly head once in a blue moon and most of the time I feel about as normal as anyone else. If you take anything from my post, let it be that we all have pasts, issues, problems that we are dealing with; I think if everyone realized that, we’d all treat each other a little more kindly.
" I didn’t do anything except sit and watch in an indifferent awe."
How the fuck can anyone be indifferent when they see a child being abused?
I don’t know where you’re from but here child abuse is not a spectator sport.
I know an ex-lawyer who got really frustrated with the fucked up justice system, you know the one where children are left with the abusive parents?
He took matters into his own hands when the children he had been hired to protect continued to suffer sexual abuse at the hands of their father. He figured that when he was done with the father the guy wouldn’t be able to abuse anyone… ever.
In the end he was dis-barred and was advised to leave the province immediately. No criminal charges were laid and the children were finally removed from the home. Perhaps his promise to the father that he or someone else would pay him another visit if he touched his daughters again had something to do with no charges being laid.
He said it was all worth it. He’s a welder now.
Maybe this wasn’t the best action to take but I think this is better than sitting back and watching in “indifferent awe”.
I personally would not have been able to resist taking the switch away and perhaps letting this woman seee how it felt.
Yeah yeah yeah… I can hear some people already who will say she was probably this way because she was abused herself… there’s no excuse for beating a child of any age.
Police have been known to beat the sweet bejesus out of child abusers (“He tripped while resisting arrest.”) The director of the camp I worked at two summers ago is famous for having beaten the hell out of a child abuser (“He was trying to run while the police were on there way”) These situations make every one feel good, all our base instincts are satisfied, and the person goes away and the child is presumably brought somewhere safe.
Reality is different. Intervening won’t neccesarily help. Hitting the mother, assuming no legal activity occurs, will probably make her take it out on the kid more. Actually helping the kids involves a lot of work, changing the system and society, and unfortunately its benifits might not be seen for a while and most certainly not for that kid.
Besides providing a violent model for the kid just reinforces might makes right. They think its OK for mom to hit them because she’s bigger and the mom, its OK for you to hit mom cause your bigger and stronger. I’d like to think in the situation I could do something productive, not just something to make myself feel good.
But I will grant you indifferent awe is a strange concept. I salute sqrl for the decision he made, and the ability to be both awed by and indifferent to the same event.
This is off topic a little (hey, not my fault) and this message is not directed at SqrlCub, but I was just wondering how much longer people were going to keep flaming and/or picking on pepperlandgirl with semi-random snipes. Do y’all need a couple more days, or are we finished now?
This isn’t a pick on pepperlandgirl, but a question about Mormons- SPOOFE, if Mormons don’t fuck, how come there are so damn many HUGE Mormon families?
And frankly, why would any Mormon man want multiple women living under one roof if he wasn’t getting any? Women can be crazy psycho people, and if you have to have several in one marriage, the LEAST one could expect would be some sex.
Was Sqrl the only other person standing around watching or trying not to watch?
Now doesn’t that kinda say something? I really doubt he was the only one there.
Nobody cares anymore to do anything because of the end result. Either nothing gets done by DHS, or it just makes things worse.
And not as bad as a story as N4S I got about the same things but mine was more verbal than physical. Lots of hurt but not much showing.
I started my family of five when I was 18 and we are all doing well. What bothered me most is when I was pregnant and older people would look at me and shake their heads. Who knows what they were thinking but does it really matter?
We were turned in once because my son came to school with a black eye. He had come home from his biological fathers house with it. His dad called me right after it happened to let me know that a toy was thrown and he caught it with his eye. The school saw it and turned us in. You see Josh was upset because he knew that they shouldn’t have been throwing toys in the house, and because he was crying when he told the nurse the story she thought he was covering for us. It was a nightmare but it all turned out fine.
Now on the other hand when we called DHS on one of my boyfriends ex’s about the abuse of their daughter they did nothing.
Sarah I was wondering have you ever read the book “A Child Called It”? I know you said it was in the past and such but it is a very moving book to read.
It is really a sticky situation and is a tuff call on what to do and how to act.
Sqrl I am really curious on this not liking children thing, but I am sure that it didn’t have anything to do with the situation and the way you did or didn’t react.
I might have said something loud enuff for them to hear about her behavior, but I don’t think I would have confronted them either. But then again who knows about that either. Her public embarassment might have gotten her to take it out on them in private even worse later.
Some people were not meant to be parents but were blessed with the capability to breed anyway. And others who can’t concieve cry at the loss of a child that they could have loved and nurtured.
