Question about prayer during/after a tragedy

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Sapo]
If you believe in an afterlife, a life of agonizing pain and despair is more life a childhood of orthopedic boots, dental braces, broken arms and bleeding knees. Sure there are other kids who live without those, but nothing that will break you.
[/quote]
Garbage. People can and have been driven insane by the suffering they have undergone; comparing that to braces is disgusting.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
Again, you are assuming a God with a gigantic remote control that changes everything on whim. The tsunami was preordained from the creation of the universe. Alas, people living there and their reactions to it were not.
[/quote]
That is simply impossible. People affect the world; if our behavior is not preordained, then nothing else is preordained. Unless you do have a god-with-a-remote-control constantly adjusting things.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
transcendental in that they have effects beyond our mortal life.
[/quote]
There’s no evidence of that, and I fail to see while that would make them transcendental.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
And yes, I am assuming there is a God. To me, the opposite is just an exceptionally stupid and destructive form of self delusion. One that I can tolerate and accept without seeing the need to think less of those who hold it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m afraid the evidence is against you, and I simply don’t believe religious people who claim not to look down upon or hate the non religious.

Although I’m not sure you can think much lower of me or anyone else, with your apparent belief that misery and suffering and despair are things to be handwaved away.

42

[QUOTE=Sapo]
If you believe in an afterlife, a life of agonizing pain and despair is more life a childhood of orthopedic boots, dental braces, broken arms and bleeding knees. Sure there are other kids who live without those, but nothing that will break you.
[/quote]

It’s still unnecessary and preventable and therefore incompatible with an omnibenevolent God. It’s not ok for God to torture chidren to death with cancer just because he’s going to let them into Disneyland afterwards.

If it was preordained by God, then God is still responsible. He has no excuse.

An afterlife is still no excuse to allow evil in the mortal life. If God has the ability to prevent suffering from ever happening (and he does or else he’s not omnipotent), then all suffering is unnecessary, and the permission of unnecessary suffering is incompatible with a God who is all-good.

43

[QUOTE=Sapo]
…
Again, you are assuming a God with a gigantic remote control that changes everything on whim. The tsunami was preordained from the creation of the universe. Alas, people living there and their reactions to it were not.
…
[/QUOTE]
:dubious: God didn’t expect faithfully obedient people to live near the shore of an island?

44

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Actually, in this case the accurate analogy would be whether or not to give him a bike in the first place, where bike = free will. Of course, a child is not an independent moral agent, so some of the argument based on consequence doesn’t apply either.
[/QUOTE]

What does free will have to do with kids getting cancer?

Would you be willing to watch your kid get snatched off his bike and get carried away by a pedophile so as not to interfere with the pedophile’s free will? If you wouldn’t do it, then why would God? Is a pedophile’s free will more important than the physical safety of a child?

I can’t buy that it’s morally acceptable for God to sacrifice innocents to some misplaced committment to the free will of assholes.

Plus, free will is something which cannot logically exist in the first place.

45

If God is hands off with the events of the world, and thus misfortune that befalls a Christian cannot be blamed on him, why do Christians who get sucess in life usually thank God for their good fortune, and (God has blessed me, etc.)? “If I do well, it is God blessing me, if not, it is him testing me”- this seems like a way to justify an apparent contradiction to me.

Also what is the basis for Chrisitians taking the reasonable parts of the Bible as things they do should do/rules they should follow, but the parts that today seem outdated or downright ridiculous are ignored? Is it right for one of his creations to make the determination which parts to follow and which to not? For example, I am told somewhere in there it says women should not speak out in church, yet there are women pastors. God is saying you are not to be a pastor, yet you ignore this and become one anyway? This doens’t make sense to me. The bible also mentions (I am told) that you can sell your daughter into slavery or something? A benevolent God is saying this?

46

[QUOTE=the PC apeman]
:dubious: God didn’t expect faithfully obedient people to live near the shore of an island?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe if we weren’t so busy inserting body parts into farm animals, we would have invented ways to stop tsunamis, or something to that effect :smiley:

47

[QUOTE=Sapo]
Maybe if we weren’t so busy inserting body parts into farm animals, we would have invented ways to stop tsunamis, or something to that effect :smiley:
[/QUOTE]
People who live on glass islands shouldn’t throw tsunamis.

48

[QUOTE=gigi]
Nope. God allows the natural world to act according to the laws of physics.
[/QUOTE]

So no miracles then?

49

[QUOTE=Cuckoorex]
So no miracles then?
[/QUOTE]

Except then.

50

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Garbage. People can and have been driven insane by the suffering they have undergone; comparing that to braces is disgusting.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you always come to that word when you have no solid response to an argument. If you make an effort to understand what I am saying, though, you might understand that I am equating mortal suffering to growing pains, each on their respective scale.

That would be what makes omnimaxity a really kick arse superpower to have. The power to allow for free will in a preordained universe. I do believe it can be done btw, that would be the topic of another thread, though

no evidence whatsoever, of course. That is just the definition I am giving it.

Your inability to set aside your prejudice is your own shortcoming. Maybe it is just a projection of your inability to not look down upon or hate the religious.

Never said they are something to be handwaved away. I am saying that in the perspective of an eternal life, they are something that will not break you, but rather something that shapes you and makes you grow.

51

I’m reminded of an argument I had with a theist over 9/11.

What if the CIA/FBI found out that I knew 9/11 would happen at the exact times and places. I neither informed nor warned anybody. Not only that, I truly had the power to stop it from happening.

Would the CIA/FBI just figure I was letting the terrorists exercise their free will?

52

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
It’s still unnecessary and preventable and therefore incompatible with an omnibenevolent God. It’s not ok for God to torture chidren to death with cancer just because he’s going to let them into Disneyland afterwards.
[/QUOTE]

Again, let’s put things into perspective. It is more like letting them fall of the bike so they can then ride a bike competently for the rest of their lives. I mean, life eternal, how bad can 100 years of suffering be next to an eternity of fulfillment?

I don’t think he needs an excuse, for starters. But again, I believe that for reasons beyond our understanding, that tsunami was what was needed to make creation perfect. We might not come to understand it, ever, but that doesn’t make it less so.

I am sure I have been through this before. Suffering is necessary because we must be free to cause suffering. God cannot stop suffering and still let us be free. No suffering means no freedom. And once again, I don’t see that suffering is such a terrible thing to be avoided. It is part of being human.

53

[QUOTE=Sapo]
Yeah, you always come to that word when you have no solid response to an argument. If you make an effort to understand what I am saying, though, you might understand that I am equating mortal suffering to growing pains, each on their respective scale.
[/quote]
Disgusting nonsense. Under no rational standard is rape and torture to the point of insanity comparable to braces.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
That would be what makes omnimaxity a really kick arse superpower to have. The power to allow for free will in a preordained universe. I do believe it can be done btw, that would be the topic of another thread, though
[/quote]
As many people have pointed out, it’s simply impossible.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
Never said they are something to be handwaved away. I am saying that in the perspective of an eternal life, they are something that will not break you, but rather something that shapes you and makes you grow.
[/QUOTE]
That is handwaving them away. That is the same attitude that leads to torture and mass murder in God’s name, because people like you don’t care what happens to people. It’s beliefs like yours that lead to the Inquisition and “kill them all, God will sort them out.”

[QUOTE=Sapo]
Again, let’s put things into perspective. It is more like letting them fall of the bike so they can then ride a bike competently for the rest of their lives. I mean, life eternal, how bad can 100 years of suffering be next to an eternity of fulfillment?
[/quote]
As I said, people have been driven insane by their suffering. Unless your god reaches into their minds and fixes them, they’d spend eternity insane; where’s the fulfillment in that ? Why didn’t he do that to begin with, or prevent them from suffering whatever ruined them ?

Any person with a spine would spend that eternity hating God for what he let him/her suffer.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
I don’t think he needs an excuse, for starters.
[/quote]
Of course he does; of course there is none. If he exists, he’s uncaring, or just evil.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
But again, I believe that for reasons beyond our understanding, that tsunami was what was needed to make creation perfect. We might not come to understand it, ever, but that doesn’t make it less so.
[/quote]
The existance of the tsunami, alone, makes “creation” imperfect.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
I am sure I have been through this before. Suffering is necessary because we must be free to cause suffering. God cannot stop suffering and still let us be free. No suffering means no freedom.
[/quote]
Pure nonsense. Not only does that ignore all the sources of suffering that humans have no power over, it ignores the fact that people are not free to avoid the suffering inflicted upon them by others. Plus, it ignores the fact that we are designed to suffer much more that necessary. And, it ignores the fact that if we were better designed psychologically, we wouldn’t inflict nearly so much suffering on each other.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
And once again, I don’t see that suffering is such a terrible thing to be avoided. It is part of being human.
[/QUOTE]
Suffering is why I don’t regard being human as something to be desired. Suffering is a major reason why if there is a God, I want him to die. Or even better, experience all the suffering he has permitted and ( if he did create us ) inflicted.

54

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Disgusting nonsense.
[/QUOTE]

I rest my case :slight_smile:

55

[QUOTE=Sapo]
I rest my case :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]
And with all the evidence and logic I’ve come to expect from the religious.

And putting a smiley in your post doesn’t make your philosophy any less monstrous.

56

Yes, tell the woman who spent 10 years as a sex slave in some sick pervs love dungeon- what’s the big deal? 10 years of daily torture is nothing when you will have an eternity of happiness after he finally kills you.

57

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Yes, tell the woman who spent 10 years as a sex slave in some sick pervs love dungeon- what’s the big deal? 10 years of daily torture is nothing when you will have an eternity of happiness after he finally kills you.
[/QUOTE]

She can make that decision herself when she gets there. If she cannot see it that way, she will be free to repudiate God and carry on without.

Listen, I know this is a hard sell, and we can all come with worse and more dramatic examples of suffering. Still, you need to consider the whole thing in perspective.

Look at a 2-year old fighting his parent while they give him eardrops. He fights like it is the end of the world, because in his mind, there is no future, there is only that moment and it is bringing him torment. Tape him and show the video to him when he is 16. He will chuckle.

He will be suffering to no end because red-haired Susy didn’t smile at him that day in class, though. Now THAT is the end of the world. Until he remembers it when he turn 30, then he will chuckle about that one too.

He will be pulling his hair at night for the mortgage payment is due tomorrow and diapers are not on sale. That REALLY is the end of the world, Until he remembers it when he is 50 and he will chuckle at the memory of that week eating stale soda crackers and green jello.

It will suck that the Chemo is not having much of an effect, though. Now THAT is a real problem. And so on. I am sure you get what I am saying, by now.

Different stages at different ages. You cannot expect someone to dismiss the problems of their stage, for they are what is consuming them. Once they pass, though, they are seen with different eyes.

Yes, some kids will die off that ear infection, and some teenagers will shoot half their class because Susy didn’t smile at them, and some people will go bankrupt and kill themselves, and some people won’t survive the chemotherapy. People break. It sucks but it is what makes life what it is. Like it or hate it.

58

[QUOTE=Sapo]
Listen, I know this is a hard sell, and we can all come with worse and more dramatic examples of suffering. Still, you need to consider the whole thing in perspective.
[/QUOTE]

What perspective? That there’s an eternal afterlife? That if you’re good it’s good and if you’re bad it’s bad? Until you can show it to be true, that ‘conjecture’, not ‘perspective’.

59

[QUOTE=Sapo]
She can make that decision herself when she gets there. If she cannot see it that way, she will be free to repudiate God and carry on without.

Listen, I know this is a hard sell, and we can all come with worse and more dramatic examples of suffering. Still, you need to consider the whole thing in perspective.

Look at a 2-year old fighting his parent while they give him eardrops. He fights like it is the end of the world, because in his mind, there is no future, there is only that moment and it is bringing him torment. Tape him and show the video to him when he is 16. He will chuckle.

He will be suffering to no end because red-haired Susy didn’t smile at him that day in class, though. Now THAT is the end of the world. Until he remembers it when he turn 30, then he will chuckle about that one too.

He will be pulling his hair at night for the mortgage payment is due tomorrow and diapers are not on sale. That REALLY is the end of the world, Until he remembers it when he is 50 and he will chuckle at the memory of that week eating stale soda crackers and green jello.

It will suck that the Chemo is not having much of an effect, though. Now THAT is a real problem. And so on. I am sure you get what I am saying, by now.

Different stages at different ages. You cannot expect someone to dismiss the problems of their stage, for they are what is consuming them. Once they pass, though, they are seen with different eyes.

Yes, some kids will die off that ear infection, and some teenagers will shoot half their class because Susy didn’t smile at them, and some people will go bankrupt and kill themselves, and some people won’t survive the chemotherapy. People break. It sucks but it is what makes life what it is. Like it or hate it.
[/QUOTE]

What age will the sex slave victim be when she is able to have a chuckle? “Look there’s dirty old Bob, sodomizing me with a hot fire poker for the tenth time that day while he masturbates on the corpse of the dead girl beside me- ah good times” :confused:

60

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
What age will the sex slave victim be when she is able to have a chuckle? “Look there’s dirty old Bob, sodomizing me with a hot fire poker for the tenth time that day while he masturbates on the corpse of the dead girl beside me- ah good times” :confused:
[/QUOTE]

about old enough to be dead and able to see what was really going on through dirty old Bob’s mind when he did what he did. Old enough to understand that the doings of imperfect mortals are nothing when seen under the light of perfection and eternity. Old enough to understand that God can forgive even dirty old Bob.

It is not an old enough to be measured in rotations of the Earth around the Sun. That is the part that you need to understand to make sense of what I am saying. It will not happen in her mortal life.

Grown-up teenager is never going to look back and say “look, there is red-haired Susy crushing my tender heart with her cultured indifference to my purest of loves. Ah, the good times”. He will see and understand that Susy had a crush on Seal and nothing else existed in her eyes. He will understand that Susy now grew up to know better than to have a crush on Seal. He will understand that his love for Susy was not true love, but just a crush.

Just as grown-up little Mary looking back at when little Joey put a frog in her lunch bag. Maybe little Joey is now a famous herpetologist and their kids go to school together. Maybe little Joey grew up to be a petty criminal and she shudders at the memory. Maybe she never outgrows that and becomes a mental case and her life is ruined because of it. The difference will be that in life eternal, you will be able to make a fully informed and free decision of what to make of your past experiences.