Question about 'the 'windfall clause' in the military

Factual Questions
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[QUOTE=Balthisar]
Looking at the 2007 pay tables, we’ll pick an E-4 – pretty typical rank for getting in and getting out. He’s making 1978.50 per month after four years. That’s only $23742 per year! That’s $11.41 an hour. He’ll be able to make more than that, plus insurance and other fringe. You know, if he applies himself. Granted, perhaps not all career choices may have that possibility, but hey, I wasn’t a grunt but a tech guy.

Lets take an O-3 after four years. At $4392 per month, that’s a little more respectable, but it’s still only $52704 per year, or just over $25 buck per hour.

Everything’s relative I suppose. Those are both better than sitting in the ghetto doing nothing or working at Burger King. Given typically who enlists, I guess I’ll admit that for enlisted, it is fairly decent money for certain types of work, especially at such a young point in a career. But an E-9 with over 26 years of service is pretty crappily paid at only just over $66,000 per year!

To be fair, consider that certain classes of people receive additional, tax-free benefits. Basic Allowance for Sustenance, and Basic Allowance for Quarters. In parts of the world, you also get Cost of Living Allowance. You get hazard pay. You get a little bit extra for purchasing uniforms and such.
[/QUOTE]

There’s a world of difference in pay contained in the last paragraph of yours. Those numbers you quote in the previous paragraphs are for basic pay only. For a married servicemember, this only accounts for about 2/3 of one’s gross pay.

When I got out as a Navy lieutenant six years ago, I made about $52K/year in basic pay. Add in the tax-free Basic Allowance for Quarters, Variable Housing Allowance, and Basic Allowance for Sustenance, and I was making a bit over $70K/year. If I had still been pulling sea pay, submarine pay, and the nuclear retention bonus, I would have been making about $90-95K/year, which is a far cry from my listed basic pay.

And again, don’t forget the completely free medical and dental care, plus free family medical care. And 20 years active duty service gets you a lifetime pension and lifetime medical care for you and your family that starts immediately upon getting out–no waiting until age 65.

And, BTW, all servicemembers either get a housing allowance, or the military gives them a place to live.

Hell, my unreasonable civilian employer expects me to somehow pay for housing out of my base pay! And I have to pay for a portion of my medical coverage! :rolleyes:

The military is a great deal, pay and benefits-wise. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed.

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P.S. All military members also get 30 days leave per year. Unfortunately, you may have to use it for weekends off, depending on your assignment. For those fortunate souls attached to shore commands with only the occasional weekend duty day, it makes up for the months at sea without a break.

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[QUOTE=robby]
And, BTW, all servicemembers either get a housing allowance, or the military gives them a place to live.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, there’s the rub. Communal living in a barracks is truly the American dream. Whereas married E-1’s collecting BAQ/BAS potentially can purchase property, and resell it for a profit. Also if you live in the barracks, almost invariably you’re not getting BAS; you’re stuck eating slop in the dining facility, or using your base pay to eat decently (or junk food). Officers automatically receive BAS, and the have the option of paying to eat in the dining facility or brown bagging it or just eating what they want to.

I’m not trying to pit officers versus enlisted, but it is a material condition that affects the net pay one receives (as is being married or being a sucker, single person). Medical care, pension, etc., isn’t an issue; you normally can get all of that plus a base higher salary in the civilian world. Maybe not everyone has a pension these days (I do), but 401(k) matching is significant. I’m vested in my pension, and have my 401(k) to take with me. I have nothing to show for my 6-1/2 years in the military (well, my current career aside, but in order to have acquired it, I had to leave the military which is what all this is about).

Also, Air Force dining facilities that I’ve had the pleasure to eat at have never been nothing but supurb. Perhaps I should have been in a different service. I always felt sorry for the Air Force meteorologists that were stationed with us, having to eat in the Army dining facilities.

I’m a veteran, and I’ve already stated my financial reasons for leaving. It’s not great pay unless you can’t do better in the real world. There’s no way I’d ever go back for purely financial reasons, as it was the poor pay and benefits that made me leave.

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[QUOTE=ExTank]
Similar experience here, although I didn’t think the pay was all that bad. But the “single guy” bias when details and after-hours duty came down drove me bonkers; as a single E-5, I was often treated with less consideration than an E-I-Owe-You-1 fresh from Boot just 'cause he was married.

Then there’s the superior who lives off-post in a pig-sty coming in to inspect your barracks room and failing you because he found a little bit of dust on the door sill, and making you slave all night scrubbing the barracks, while he goes home to the missus.
[/QUOTE]

Amen brother. I learned quick to have an emergency beer in the fridge. When they came knocking on the door for some detail I would answer the door with the beer in my hand. “Sorry I can’t go puch the helicopters into the hanger. Been drinking.”

As for the OP, I never heard of a specific windfall clause. However it would be possible to get administratively discharged, as long as you got the right people to sign off on it. Since this usually happens only for hardships I’m not sure if it has every been done.

25

Thanks for all the answers.

To clarify my question, I was interested in whether the miltary had a rule that decreed that: 1) when a person comes into sudden money they are allowed to separate; or 2) they are required to separate.

Based on the responses, it doesn’t appear that either such rule exists.

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[QUOTE=Balthisar]
Ah, there’s the rub. Communal living in a barracks is truly the American dream. Whereas married E-1’s collecting BAQ/BAS potentially can purchase property, and resell it for a profit. Also if you live in the barracks, almost invariably you’re not getting BAS; you’re stuck eating slop in the dining facility, or using your base pay to eat decently (or junk food). Officers automatically receive BAS, and the have the option of paying to eat in the dining facility or brown bagging it or just eating what they want to.

I’m not trying to pit officers versus enlisted, but it is a material condition that affects the net pay one receives (as is being married or being a sucker, single person)…
[/QUOTE]

Well, fair enough, single junior enlisted folks tend to get the short end of the stick.

However, while your first example upthread was indeed that of a (presumably) single E-4, your other two examples were that of an O-3 and an E-9, neither of whom would be living in the barracks. And even E-4’s can get out of the barracks if they get married.

If you are pulling a housing allowance, it makes a huge difference in pay. And even if you are stuck in the barracks, you still aren’t shelling out for housing out of your pay, whereas everyone on the outside expects you to pay for housing and food out of what they pay you.

27

First, it’s difficult to buy property and resell it a profit if you have to move every two to three years or so. Unless you can put down one hell of a down payment, it’s nigh well impossible to have any kind of decent equity built up after such a short period of time. You also need to consider that many duty stations are in places where real estate isn’t exactly in high demand. Of course, if you’re a landlord, you can do well, but it’s a bitch to own rental property if you’re in another state or country unless you want a management company eating your profits. This, by the way, is as true for an E-1 as it is for an O-10. It’s the reality of real estate, which has nothing to do with rank. The exception is for a duty station like Norfolk or San Diego, where it’s perfectly possible to be assigned there as an E-1 and not have to move until you retire.

Second, IME, dining-hall food isn’t slop by any means. I can’t say I never had a bad meal in a Navy galley, but the food is edible, and there is lots of variety. It’s certainly no better and no worse than a lot of chain restaurants.

Third, if you’re in a large-enough duty station and you’re married, you can often live in on-base family housing, which is generally pretty nice and well-maintained. Families live rent-free and don’t pay utility bills. I’m not even sure they pay for cable. They don’t receive BAH, but this may not be a bad thing if the cost of living off-base is high relative to the BAH received.

Finally, if you’re not a total idiot and you realize that all of your basic needs are met, you can save up and invest a good bit of it, and at some point, you’ll have a nice nest egg.

I’m not saying that it’s all a big bowl of cherries. It’s not; your job may be lousy, the hours may suck, and Uncle Sam owns you for the duration of your enlistment. Moving every few years is a big expensive hassle. But if you’re smart about it, you can do well for yourself.

Robin

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[QUOTE=robby]
The military is a great deal, pay and benefits-wise. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed.
[/QUOTE]

A friend of mine was an O3 during Gulf War I. Loads of reservists and IRR people were called up when it started. When they went to full time, many of them realized that they were now making way more money and wanted to stay in. This same friend is now an O5 reservist with maybe three years left until retirement. We’ve talked about this a few times and he totally agrees with robby.

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[QUOTE=hajario]
A friend of mine was an O3 during Gulf War I. Loads of reservists and IRR people were called up when it started. When they went to full time, many of them realized that they were now making way more money and wanted to stay in. This same friend is now an O5 reservist with maybe three years left until retirement. We’ve talked about this a few times and he totally agrees with robby.
[/QUOTE]

Depends on where you live and what you do. I could not take the pay cut if I went back fulltime. I’m a cop who works for a municipality. As for when I am activated, thank god for double dipping. Active duty housing allowance is about half of my mortgage.

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[QUOTE=F. U. Shakespeare]
Thanks for all the answers.

To clarify my question, I was interested in whether the miltary had a rule that decreed that: 1) when a person comes into sudden money they are allowed to separate; or 2) they are required to separate.

Based on the responses, it doesn’t appear that either such rule exists.
[/QUOTE]

Inasmuch as you’re looking for a rule or regulation, no, none exists. Nevertheless, I’m forced to rely on anecdote. It has happened to a couple of people before my very eyes- they wanted to get out, they got their marching papers, no hard feelings. The people that stayed, though, bailed on every deployment they could, and that generates ill will. Those people were generally not offered promotion or re-enlistment.

Take that for what it’s worth.

31

I guy I know is a police officer with a federal agency, and a NY National Guard reservist (E-5) who will be leaving for an Iraq tour at the end of next month. He just had the training session dealing with financial and legal matters (as well as a bunch of nasty injections). He said that when he goes over his gross pay will drop significantly, but his take home will be about the same because of the tax benefits.

32

Here’s a real world cite. He’s going back for a third tour despite winning a million bucks.

33

AFI 36-3208 covers early separation for the Air Force. Valid reasons:

[QUOTE=Summary]
– Convenience of the government

— Entering an officer training program

— Early release to further education

— Training at an accredited school for medical education as a physician, dentist, osteopath, veterinarian, optometrist, or clinical psychologist

— Elimination from Officer Training School (OTS) if the airman enlisted specifically for OTS

— Nonfulfillment of enlistment or reenlistment agreement by the Air Force

— Becoming a sole surviving son or daughter after enlistment

— Early release from extension of service

— Acceptance of public office

— Conscientious objection

— Pregnancy or childbirth

— Early release for Christmas (if the date of separation falls on or after 9 December and before 8 January the following year)

— Medal of honor recipient; and

— Miscellaneous reasons when early separation is in the best interests of the Air Force

– Dependency or hardship: Airmen may request discharge when genuine dependency or undue hardship exists; all of the following factors must be present

— The dependency or hardship is not temporary
— Conditions have arisen or have been aggravated to an excessive degree since the airman entered active duty

— The airman has made every reasonable effort to remedy the situation

— Separation will eliminate or materially alleviate the conditions; and

— There are no means of alleviation available other than separation

– Undue hardship does not necessarily exist because of altered present or expected income, the family is separated, or the family suffers from the inconveniences usually incident to military service
[/quote]

While I’ve always heard this to be true, I’ve never heard anyone claim it was codified anywhere, and this clearly seems to be the case. However, “Miscellaneous reasons when early separation is in the best interests of the Air Force” seems to certainly qualify, if you can convince them that you want to get out, you don’t intend to work very hard, and you’ll generally be a nuisance. While AFPC has ultimate authority to approve the request, getting your immediate commander to sign on to your reasons shouldn’t be hard, and that would go a long way towards making it happen.

(active duty NCO who sorta works in manpower/personnel chiming in)