Question for Christians

In My Humble Opinion
1

ATTENTION: This is NOT a debate. And I’m not interested in getting into a knock-down-drag-out with anyone about who is “right.” If it starts getting into that, I’ll ask one of our Esteemed Moderators to close the thread. This is a serious question… please treat it as such. Thank you.

Further standard disclaimer… I am not a Christian. I was raised Roman Catholic, but have been a practicing Pagan for 12 years. I do not profess to understand in the least the practices that I am about to describe. The people involve are, for lack of a better descriptor, Southern Baptist.

Do you hear that? That steady thumping noise? That, my friends, is the sound of a bobkitty’s head banging against her desk. See, bobkitty and Mr. Bobkitty had dinner with Mr. Bobkitty’s daughter (henceforth known as SD) last night. She’s getting married, and her fiance wanted Mr. Bobkitty’s blessing. The exact timeline is unknown, but probably not much more than six months… certainly less than a year. They have a house picked out, and she has a job. They’re just using the next few months to get out of debt, otherwise they’d probably be setting up the date for some time next week.

Oh… did I forget to mention? She’s 16. He’s 20. But they insist they’re meant to be together.

Well, that’s nice, you may say. Can’t stand between true love, and all that rot. Sure, she’s a little young, but that’s not that big of a deal. I may even be inclined to agree with you… BUT…

They don’t really know each other that well.

See, for her 16th birthday, all SD wanted was a book. “Boy Meets Girl.” Feel free to look it up on Amazon. So, Mr. Bobkitty and I braved the world of the local Christian bookstore and got it for her. Little did we know where we’d wind up. SD swore off dating. Not that she’d been very active beforehand… the only relationship she’d had before was with her preacher’s son. But hey, in this day and age, perhaps that’s not a bad thing. The image I got was sort of group dating… you know, the church has events for the kids, and everyone hangs out. Nope. SD and her church peers swore off dating. No contact with the opposite sex, outside of church services. It seems that friendship is okay, but I have no clue how they go about it if they can only hang out at church. Eventually (though again I don’t quite understand how) you meet the person God intends for you to be with, and you get married. Courtship is involved in there somehow. And now SD has met the guy that God wants her to marry.

Now, I really want to understand this, but SD doesn’t get involved in religious discussions with me (she has a tendency to get upset and start witnessing, whereupon I’m forced to whup the hell out of her with her own beliefs). So here are my questions.

  1. W… T… F??? Okay. Got that out of my system.

  2. Is this a widespread practice that I’ve completely missed? The page on this book on Amazon tells me it’s a sequel to a 1997 book, which implies it’s been around for at least that long.

  3. Is there a biblical basis to this, or is it more or less a secular thing that sprang up to promote abstinence?

  4. You have limited contact with the opposite sex. Parents don’t seem to be involved (nixing the ‘arranged marriage’ angle). How do you stumble across the one you’re meant for?

  5. There isn’t much time for an official study, but does anyone have statistics on these types of marriages?

  6. What if you’re wrong? I have the obvious benefit of divorce if for some reason I wake up one morning and realize I’ve made a terrible mistake. But, when you’re leaving it up to God, I doubt you’re allowed such niceties. Are you stuck? Even if, say, the marriage is abusive?

  7. Can someone explain courtship to me? I would think that it’d be like dating with the added spin of ‘I’m dating the person I’m gonna marry’, but apparently (according to SD) I’m wrong. I do know there’s absolutely nothing physical involved.

And before you ask, Mr. Bobkitty gave them his blessing to hang out/date/get to know each other, but wouldn’t go further than that. He’s not pleased, but we’re kind of at a place where we don’t have much say in the matter 'cause we’re not Christian (yes, that IS the reason).

Any insight would be appreciated. Meantime, I’m going to go process the fact that I’ll likely be a grandmother before I turn 30. ::shudder::

-BK

2

Apparently, we Catholics don’t qualify as Christian anymore. Neither do most Christians. :slight_smile:

3

That is a practice that I’m not at all familar with. And while I’m not southern baptist, I’ve attended enough of their church services and have enough friends that are, this just does not sound right. It sounds more like the road the church as decided to take and not the religion. My feeling is that yes, there is someone that God intended you to be with, and it’s through prayer and like beliefs that you encounter this person, not location (such as only at church). I doubt very seriously that the church they are attending will encourage this marriage, simply because of the age. If they do, I would suggest that you check this church out. Even southern baptist are not so hot on divorce and encourage couples to get to know each other and have counseling together before they even consider marriage.

4

I know lotsa Southern Baptists (I even married one!), but this is the first I’d heard of this sort of extreme renunciation of dating in any remotely mainstream evangelical denomination. Although it has its adherents, notably Congressman Jim Ryun (yes, the onetime world record holder in the mile and 1500 meters).

See also this Washington Times article from 1999.

5

I was raised Southern Baptist, my father is a Southern Baptist preacher(actually a retired seminary prof), who took retirement when the Seminary got a little too fundie, and now teaches at Baylor part time. I consider myself to be a generic christian, but the church I attend is kind of a GenX baptist thing.
Anyway, don’t blame this one on us, it is not a Baptist thing.

6

Ex-Christian here, and the church I was invovled with for years (Charismatic/Pentecostal) had a number of girls who read the first book (“I Swore off Dating Forever” I think it was called) and one in particular who was bound and determined to follow the guidlines. In my discussions with her, she believed that just by hanging out with people and being friends, the whole love thing would sneak up on her. See, they are very fearful of the lust thing, and dating in their minds is lustful. This is taken from Jesus words about anyone looking on others with lust in their heart is commiting adultery. They SO take this quote out of context as Jesus was referring to married, Jewish men.

So by being friends for a long time, sooner or later her husband, when moved by God, would ask her hand in marriage. She intended not only not to date, but not even to kiss someone until their wedding day. I never understood it either, but she was convinced that the book was right and this would work. She was rather young as well, around 19. There wasn’t much logic behind it other than whatever was in the book and trusting that God would make two people fall in love without knowing it.

Do you know what kind of church this is? I can probalby give you a lowdown on their doctrine.

Would I be concerned? Personally, I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder with this brand of Christianity. Be careful, you just might find some Chick tracks laying around. I’ll try answering questions if you like, but I never read the book and thought it was crazy talk so didn’t really delve into the specifics of the practice.

On a side note, you mentioned the preachers son. I went to a Christian High School and grew up in the church, and let me warn you that PK (Preacher’s Kids, the have their own nomenclature) are the worst freakin’ kids on the planet. I have yet to meet a PK who wasn’t a sneaky, mischievious little bastard, and I’ve met over a dozen. I’m sure there are some good ones out there, but I’ve yet to meet one.

7

I have to say good for Mr. bobkitty for stopping short of giving his blessing for marriage. Whether or not this man is her intended mate is not as big a question to me as your daughter’s age. Sixteen year olds are not exactly known for being the most level headed, rational beings. Could be she is more infatuated than in love. I know that in theory 16 year old girls are supposed to be more mature than 16 year old boys, but still sixteen seems to be a little young to be considering a lifetime committment.

I am Episcopal and do know that in the Episcopal church a couple has to go through several months of Pre-Cana (pre-marital) counseling before being married. I also know some Baptists who have told me they went through a period of pre-marital counseling with their pastor before marriage. Still I cannot imagine ANY church that would encourage someone as young as sixteen to marry, or indeed be supportive of marrying so young. Ok I know, shotgun weddings maybe, but still I think sixteen is too young.

8

I agree with swampbear. I’m 23 and was married last summer in a Baptist Church. It’s more my mother’s church than mine, but I was raised in it and never heard of this do-not-date rule.

What I DO know is that the preacher there wouldn’t marry my husband and I because we were only going to be engaged for 5 months. He said that he’d require more counsiling than that, so he just let us have another preacher do the ceremony. My point here is that maybe you could talk to her pastor and find out if he has any set rules on this subject. If he DOES have guidelines you’re willing to agree with, then send her to talk with him… (my guess is that a 16 year old and a 20 year old won’t make it through the 5 months of counsiling).

Just my 2 cents. Hope that was of some help!!

:):):slight_smile:

9

Ryun’s approach seems to be a bit more conservative than that of Joshua Harris (author of Boy Meets Girl). I’ve been able to finally find one page that (briefly) summarizes courtship in a manner that apparently reflects Harris’ thinking. That summary is:

I don’t know if I can answer your questions, bobkitty, based on what little I know. But regardless of what ‘courtship’ means to the participants, it’s clear that parental involvement is a given. And it’s hard to see a Biblical basis for dispensing with ‘honor thy father and thy mother’ on the basis of Dad’s not being a Christian. (Dust off your Bible, open to Mark 7:9-13, and see what Jesus has to say about people who find specious excuses for dismissing the applicability of this commandment.) So it looks as if Mr. Bobkitty still has a place in this process, regardless of the divergence of beliefs. He might point out the aforementioned passage to the young lovers, and ask them if they can be trusted to obey any of the commandments, if they feel he has no legitimate say in this simply due to his not being of the same faith.

But so far, I’d say he’s doing just fine. Good luck.

10

I’m not sure how helpful any insight I could provide would be, but there is an angle to this that nobody has mentioned yet…

If you, viewers of this thread, firmly believed that it was immoral to hang out with the opposite sex until you were married, how many of YOU would be looking to marry at 16?

Do you think that this might be entering in to her decision at all? Is this a point you can discuss with her?

The age difference doesn’t bother me, in fact, I’d probably be less accepting if they were both 16. Good luck in any case.

-LV

11

You know, after reading about these books on Amazon, it strikes me that you’re not going to run into a whole lot of that type of people here. Maybe you should do a search on these terms (Boy meets Girl, God-centered dating, etc.) and find an MB for teens/young adults? Maybe lurking there would give you a feel for the philosophy and the terminology, so you can speak her language to her. I’d also recommend reading the books, for the same reason.

That said, these books don’t look so bad to me, and probably have some nice ideas. What your SD’s church has done with them sounds a bit over the top, and what your SD is up to sounds like a pretty bad idea. Definitely investigate her church’s and pastor’s attitudes towards what is going on. And mostly, good luck, a lot, with this.

12

As a preachers kid myself, I can vouch for this being the case most of the time(I can think of only one or two exceptions in the many PK’s I knew).

13

Qualifications: Born again Christian. Attended pentecostal churches in Australia since 1974. Sent kids to the church’s school big mistake in retrospect. Seen churches go great guns, then bust up. Seen pastors caught out in sex and money issues. The whole “shepherding” movement (ask me off line if you want the gory details). Father of 7 (20 to 2.5 years old). Belated grandfather material.

There was a pentecostal movement in Australia 10-15 years ago that now seems almost Taliban-ish. Couples on dates were always chaperoned. Dating prospects were always picked on the basis of marriage being more than a 50/50 result. No kissing before engagement. And yes, the wife’s career ground to a halt when kids came along.

But then they still got divorced as often as the lusters.

I thought things were a bit more realistic nowadays. But, my points are this:

(1) A man and woman need to get to know each other, and to fall in love enough to overlook the other’s foibles and to be willing to adapt/change their entire lifestyle. Otherwise, in the long term, you won’t be able to overlook the foibles and that will be the reason for a separation/divorce.

(2) It’s not that 16 is too young, but that the person is still changing too much (ie growing up) to be a stable platform to build a marriage on. A marriage isn’t completed on the wedding day - that’s the official groundbreaking ceremony. Courtship is drawing up the blueprints of the house you’re going to live in; wedding is the loan approval; from then on its an ongoing building project. (and if you own a house, you know about the waterpipe leaks, the repainting, the guttering replacement, the new garden beds & can relate them to changes in the marriage & relationship, eg kids, careers, moving house, schools, sickness etc etc etc).

(3) Leaving marriage up to God is like saying I’ll leave my relationship with God up to God. The Bible tells us to do things in an active sense - take victory over sin, step out in faith, overcome the devil etc. The “step of faith” means I can be what God wants me to be - which never happens overnight. We all grow into the positions and roles we take on in life - overnight success is the most dangerous and unstable. Choosing to marry someone is a matter of prayer, love and relationship, which are all active, and an ongoing process.

(4) Abstinence is biblical. The relationship (marriage) should rule the sex, not the other way around. Sex is an expression of love, not a method to get love. Sex is for giving (love), not getting (lust).

(5) Limited contact was intended, for my guess, as a method to limit the opportunities for “lustful” thoughts or inappropriate situations. The result of this is I marry a woman when I don’t understand women. Risky, painful, a steep learning curve, probably leads to an abuse of the “head of the household” position, even with the best intentions. What worth is a commitment to that which you don’t understand?

If she was my daughter, I would say God loves you both, and He wants you to grow to be the empowered woman He wants you to be. While you are still growing, He wouldn’t want you to exchange your natural father for a husband you couldn’t support in what life will throw at you. Let the love grow until it matches His love, then it will stay unbroken for the rest of your lives together.

14

First off, thanks to everyone who wished us luck. We’re gonna need it, I think.

Second, thanks for those who offered their insight. I am truly clueless when it comes to this, and since I can’t talk to SD about it I’m left with few options.

Genie, you’re right- I probably won’t find too many of Harris’ type of believer here. But I knew that if they were here, they would at least give me a well-thought-out, coherent explanation. I also didn’t want to lurk on a BB that housed strict followers of this system- just reading the amazon summaries has me biting through my tongue. Not to say that some of the ideas aren’t good ones. I’m not advocating SD to go out and bed-hop until she finds ‘the one,’ nor am I dismissing the whole idea out-of-hand. I’m just having a wee bit of trouble with the fact that she’s 16, he’s 20, and everyone except for Mr. Bobkitty and I think this is a fabulous idea that should go forward as quickly as possible because God has ordained it.

RT… thanks for the links. And I do think they at least acknowledge that Mr. Bobkitty has some say in the matter, otherwise (like all the other decisions the kids and their mom make) he would have found out a few months after the wedding. They just fall back on the ‘you can’t really understand our decision’ if presented with an argument they can’t win. Religion is a big, festering sore spot for Mr. Bobkitty, and it’s a card they’re more than willing to play if they have to. On a positive note, I doubt she’d just up and marry against Mr. Bobkitty’s wishes, if for no other reason than the fact that he’s obligated in the divorce agreement to pay for 1/2 of her wedding.

LordVor… uhhh… actually, to be completely honest, no. I’ve been present for far too many of the ‘sex’ talks with SD to think for a minute that this has anything to do with an overwhelming desire to hop into bed with someone and have it sanctioned by the church. Let me just say that her future hubby has a lot of begging in his future.

The preacher is supportive of such things, because any other kind of attitude would be, in effect, questioning God. That of course is a big old no-no. So no help from that quarter, unfortunately. There are a lot of questionable things going on at the church- this is just the latest.

And I agree about preachers’ kids. I actively sought them out for a while. :wink:

Thanks again, everyone. Guess I have to just get used to the idea. Though the wedding is going to be a most interesting affair. :slight_smile:

-BK

15

I would think that dating IS a form of courtship, in that people are getting to know one another and fall in love.

16

I knew some kids in high school (public school) that belonged to a sect that followed something like what bobkitty is talking about. There, though, the men, when they decided they were “ready” to get married, spoke with the minister who acted as a matchmaker of sorts. No dating at all prior to this, for either sex, was allowed. I know that women had some degree of veto power, but not very much. Most of the couples knew each other to some degree before “courtship”.

That said, I think any resistance would be a wasted effort. No amount of reasoned debate wil probably work with a 16 year old. Sorry, I know that’s not what you wanted to hear.I think these sorts of beliefs spring up out of fear of sexual desires and feelings – maybe if the chruches were more forthright about them… nah, getting too close to GD.

17

Very nice post, BalmainBoy. Maybe you should have her read this.

18

Former Southern Baptist for the first 16 years of my life. I was brainwashed into becoming a fundie (long story), then was ostracized from the “cult” when it was discovered that some of my friends at school were “wild” and I considered myself a feminist.

Needless to say, I hold no love in my heart for the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) or the Calvinist Southern Baptists that I encountered.

I have heard of what you speak of, bobkitty, but it’s not widely practiced in my town. HOWEVER–most of the extremely religious couples got married young. I have a friend who’s almost 20 that married a guy this summer–they’re now two months pregnant. Another “friend” of mine got married–she and her husband are 19 and 20, respectively, and have been married six months. Another couple that I’m friends with are both 18 and planning to be married in two years.

Now, I think that marrying young is generally not a good idea, especially after such fast “courtships” as some of these couples have had…marrying just to avoid sexual temptation is rather silly, I think…
I mean, I love the guy I’ve been dating for a month and a half now, but I’m not ready to marry him or anyone else, and I’m definitely NOT ready to be a mother. I don’t know if I’ll ever be–and yes, if I do decide to marry someone, it will be after careful deliberation and prayer.

Just my 2 cents.

19

Bobkitty - I’m not sure if I have anything new to offer but I thought I’d throw in my .02 since I have actually read one of Josh Harris’s books on dating (or the absence of dating, to be more precise). I read the first book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

I know it will probably set your teeth on edge to read it, but it might be worth trying. I have a hard time believing that Mr. Harris advocates marrying so young and/or someone you have not gotten to know quite well. I didn’t agree with the book I read but there were a couple of interesting points. (By the way, I read it because it was required reading for the Christian School a family member was attending and I wanted to know exactly what they were being taught)

Again - I’m not saying I agree with this guy :slight_smile: One thought that came up, though is how dating can feel ‘artificial’ and can actually be a tough way to really get to know someone. Yes, he believes in just getting on with your life and trusting God to send your soulmate along. But he also throws out some ideas for “un-dating” such as church groups and participating together in service projects. This last is something I might consider encouraging if I were in your situation. I did something similar long before this fad came along. A guy that I was interested in asked me about getting together and ‘doing something’. He said he’d like to get to know me better. We were members of the same church, both pretty new Christians and we ended up volunteering to teach the preschool class together for 2 months. It was a lot of fun and we learned a lot about each other. Turns out, we made great friends and that was all we wanted. If SD and fiance were to actually get involved in something like this it would give them a chance to get to know each other better at least.

I’m also very concerned over how young she is. Maybe you can discuss some old testament verses with her? I was thinking especially of the story of Jacob waiting 7 years for Rachel ;)Actually, it turned out to be 14, but he originally bargained for 7. Anyway, if they want to be all biblical about this thing, then they might as well slow down.

I’ve had some very, very bad personal experience with this no dating idea being taken to the extreme but it’s a subject for email if you’re interested.

I apologize for the long post. I hope some of it may be helpful, and I wish you well. I admire you for trying understand SD. She’s lucky to have you and Mr. Bobkitty.

20

Let’s say they marry in 9 months and she becomes pregnant immediately. That means she will be close to 18 when the baby is born. I’m coming up with the fact that you were 12 when she was born.