Other Christian Dopers, Your Input?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Posting Note: I have been vascillating about posting this for three days. I’m specifically putting it here in IMHO because I’m not looking for a debate and I’m not angry, so the Pit isn’t right anyway, even though this topic can be divisive. I’m specifically looking for the input of people who relate to the situation and can speak specifically to it.

Background: I am a Christian, but my denomination is not open and affirming to gay people and stands firmly opposed to gay marriage, in the church or elsewhere. I, on the other hand (as evidenced by many posts on these Boards) am not opposed to gay marriage as a matter of law; I strongly beleive that when it comes to civil behavior, the Constitution and guarantees of equality trump religious teaching. If congregations or denominations don’t want to perform gay marriages, that’s their call just as they currently don’t perform weddings for every hetero couple who walks through their doors, but that should have no bearing on the law.

That said, my dilemma: I am a part of a nondenominational Christian chorale group. The members come from all across the spectrum of Christian belief. This poses no problem, in general. We all love the music we’re singing and we all like one another.

We close each rehearsal with a time of group prayer which is preceeded with the sharing of prayer requests and praise reports. We pray in a circle, and anyone who wants to pray aloud for any of our requests, in thanks for any of our reports, or for any topic that they feel germane, can do so.

At our last rehearsal, one of the members shared (as a praise report) that his son had gotten engaged. When we were praying in the circle, this same member spoke up and thanked the Lord for the blessing of his son finding a good woman to be his wife. Then he went on, and further thanked God for the “institution of marriage” which God “ordained made holy as one man with one woman together under the leadership of Christ.” He capped it with “And we thank you, Lord, for raising up elected leaders and church officials who will continue to fight to preserve the sanctity of your holy gift of marriage and protect it against the onslaught from perverts and heathens.” :eek:

I was standing right next to this guy, holding hands, and getting physically repulsed. he’s part of what I know as a fairly liberal church and fairly liberal denomination, so I was surprised. I was also shocked that this guy conflates a church marriage with a legal marriage. I know that many do, but it’s not a logical position. I mean, if all marriage is meant to be under the leadership of Christ, does that mean Jews and Buddhists and atheists aren’t married? Or don’t have a right to be? It’s an untenuous position, IMO.

But I was most surprised in that this guy just presumed that we’d all agree with his sentiments. And in prayer, I feel like anyone who didn’t was put into a very uncomfortable and difficult situation – though God certainly knows all of our hearts and minds, how could I, or any of us, say “amen” after such a prayer when we don’t agree with it?

I’m feeling unable to let it go, though. I know, because the friend I ride along with mentioned it as we were driving home that evening, that I’m not the only one who disagreed with what was said. In addition, both she and I agree that certain statements he’s made over the weeks could indicate that our group director is gay, though he’s not out.

I really don’t want to debate the topic of gay marriage with the guy who prayed, I doubt it’d make one bit of difference. But I feel like I should make a suggestion to him that political statements, especially ones that are so very divisive and imbued with such angry language, have no place in corporate prayer with a group of people from so many different Christian perspectives. I’m not planning a confrontation, just a gentle mention that there wasn’t a need to “go there” and that he might want to think before he goes there again. After all, we’re supposed to let our brothers and sisters know about these sorts of easily avoidable offenses, aren’t we?

I am interested in the opinions of those who are willing to focus on the question at hand, which is: should I say something to my fellow choraler?

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I would guess that he probably thinks everyone agrees with him because the “Christian position” is that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, he probably feels he could say a prayer like that and nobody would disagree with him.

Have you considered sitting down with him in private and discussing it with him? Tell him why you believe what you believe. You never know, you might change his mind.

3

I’m still thinking about whether it would be helpful to bring this up to the individual mentioned.

What I do have an opinion about is the type of open group prayer you mentioned. This incident makes a splendid example of why I don’t care for that format. I would suggest that having a brief prayer together with ONE speaker (minister, chorale director, someone who knows better than to get on a soapbox) for the benefit of the group is more befitting the situation. I’d be inclined to explore a change in that direction.

4

While I certainly do not agree with Lord Ashtar’s final statement, I do believe speaking to him in a civil manner would be the best route to take. I would not start by thinking you want to change his mind. But I would not let him think that you and others agreed with his assertion. To me, this is the very reason I have problems with Christianity. I was raised Catholic, and am now quite Unitarian. Loving your fellow human being goes very far in my faith with the Universe.

5

I have no idea…

But I’m going through an incredibly similar situation (non-denominational group, members from a variety of churches, group prayer or formal sharing) and that issue, and other issues, crop up in prayer and in sharing, and I have no idea what to do about it.

So far, I haven’t been able to come up with a way that wouldn’t be worse than the original problem - so, thank you for opening this thread.

6

I have recently faced a similar problem with one of my husband’s cousins who was forwarding me anti-gay marriage emails. She assumed that because I am a Southern Christian that I would be opposed to homosexuals marrying.

Although I would also find the prayer offered by the group member offensive, prayers are an offering to God of what is in our hearts. It is not subject to approval by others.

May I suggest that rather than discussing what was “wrong” in his prayer with him, offer your own prayer that is an example of love and nonjudgment. Pray for minds open to the full meaning of compassion, the blessings of marriage on those who love, the wisdom to exercise more control in our own lives and less in others. Pray for our countries leaders that they might do the same.

I don’t mean to put words in your mouth. This is just to say that these are things that I might think of myself. In this case I think I would add a request for patience and understanding for those with a differing viewpoint. :wink:

Pax

7

You know your fellow singer better than I do, so I don’t feel like I can make a judgement as to whether he would be receptive to your suggestion. All I have to suggest is that you limit yourself to only two choices: either say something directly to him, quietly, or don’t say anything to anyone that could possibly be construed as criticism of the guy.

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our country’s leaders

(Sorry. I was an English teacher. :smack:

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Not a Christian. But I second Zoe’s motion–offer your own, positive prayer. Pray that God strengthen all loving relationships, and grant our leaders the wisdom to recognize all committed, loving relationships with the same social and legal protections that the rest of us are so blessed to enjoy. And that people of all persuasions may no longer have to fear the unjust hatred of their fellow man for simply loving another person.

(I’d say make up something like: “My nephew is getting married next week! Let’s all pray that Bob and Harold enjoy a long, happy life together in wedded bliss.”–but no reason to ask for lightning bolts… Do you know any gay people who are eager to marry? Bring them up.)

10

I’ve thought about it some more, and I’ve come to this: What was described constitutes espousing a political viewpoint and passing blanket judgment on strangers. I don’t think either is appropriate in a prayer circle. Bringing it up to the individual is warranted.

Fair enough for private prayer. For public prayer, there are some things others should not be subjected to.

Something like this could be construed as a return volley in an “argument by prayer.” It appears to me it would be treading on dangerous ground.

That I would agree with.

11

I think I agree with Zoe - pray for tolerance, and understanding, and the knowledge that God’s love is extended to all sinners. Something like that.

12

I’m in pretty much the same boat myself at the moment, over the broader issues of human sexuality, including gay marriage, but also the issue of privacy for transsexuals.

So far, I’ve spoken to one person about it and it actually went much better than I expected; starting with something like:

Look, I think the church is actually on the brink of crisis over this issue because a lot of people really want this to be a completely black-and-white issue about pure people versus utterly vile perverts; only trouble is that it simply isn’t like that in the real world, no matter how much we might wish it - the vast majority of people simply don’t fit into those neat little pigeonholes.

13

Some good advice here.

DON’T say “amen.”

DO add a prayer for tolerance and understanding.

DON’T get into a “war by prayer.”

And remember, God will judge whether a prayer is meritorious or specious.

14

I’m going to be a rarity here, and be the one who’s actually not so ok with gay marriage. To be more specific, I don’t believe that the church in entirely off base in beliefs about gay activities (not Fred Whackjob, whoever that guy is), at least the ones like my church who have a “we respectfully disagree” attitude.

OTOH, I’m conflicted about the role of the government in enforcing a view like that. My libertarian (sometimes) leaning heart doesn’t often like laws being passed unless they’re reaaaaally necessary.

I do identify with the OP, though. I’ve had it just ASSUMED in church groups that evolution was some sort of lie of the devil, and what are you going to do? Starting an argument right there won’t get you anywhere. The person is by definition so uninformed on the matter that using logic has about a 5% chance of working.

I think that going to the guy in private and telling him your personal view, and that you don’t think that loving Jesus means that you necessarily have all the same political viewpoints.

To get anywhere, you’ll have to affirm your religious beliefs first, and explain how you don’t like the idea of the gov. making laws like this, because it allows for laws that restrict something near and dear to his heart in the future.

I’d also be tempted to throw in something about how American Christians complain like Nero’s outside ready to burn them, but in fact they haven’t begun to suffer for their faith. But that’s probably not a good idea now.

15

I’m going to have to agree with Kunilou on this one. Say nothing.

You stand with hands embraced and know full well that someone will pray their mind. That IS their pray after all. Not yours. Also, it’s their opinion. You don’t have to agree with it. But if you don’t, that’s when YOUR prayers come in.

It isn’t between you and he. It’s between you and Him, and him and Him.

16

I am not a Christian, or a spiritual person, but…

I think that staying silent about an issue you really object to just lends an aura of agreement. People who are in the fence about the issue should be made aware that people whose opinions they presumably respect don’t all agree with the guy who’s talking loudest.

17

Well, it would have been between the Lord and him if only the Lord had heard it. Saying it out loud, publicly, does make it everybody else’s business, especially if the group dynamic is such that assent and support are implicit.

18

I had a similar problem with family members sending me racist, anti-immigrant diatribes.

Writing an email back thanking her for the “absolutely hilarous” email she’d sent to me, “the best laugh I’d had for days”, just “absolutely hysterical” and tellin how I really appreciated her “efforts to lighten my day by sending me this funny parody” got me pulled from her distribution list real quickly.

19

I agree that it would probably be best to say nothing. My own opinion is that you’re only going to antagonize this guy no matter how tactfully you approch him, and that his response is likely to be to try to line up everyone he can to support him in his position. I think the situation could very easily deteriorate into one in which there are two camps, both hostile to the other, and your pleasant chorale experience will become strained at best and fall apart at worst.

It’s been my experience in life that most people you encounter in day-to-day life are far less reasonable and willing to calmly discuss divisive matters such as this as are those on the SDMB. I think the likelihood is that the problem will simply die out unless he’s on such a mission that he will continue to look for opportunities to offer up such prayers. I know it would be difficult to swallow, but I would do just that for the overall good of your singing group and experience. Then, if he continues along these lines and it doesn’t die out, perhaps several of you who feel the same way could approach him and try to resolve it amicably.

20

“Lord, we thank you for the wisdom you have given us, the zeal You have placed in our hearts to discover the world You made, and the compassion and love to remember that each of Your children is worthy of the love You have given to each of us.”

It would take an interesting individual to take issue with that prayer, as it’s so nonspecific and dogmatically-based that only someone with a real dissonance between what is taught and what is believed would disagree … and, in so doing, out him or herself as being apart from the flock, so to speak, at which point it probably becomes a matter between that individual and the deity in question and/or that individual and the pastor/preacher/priest/etc. of the congregation. IMO, anyway. YMMV, etc.