Question for vegans (insight into the minds of other vegans)

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m having trouble wrapping my head around the motivations behind some vegans. Obviously everyone is different and no one can speak for everyone, but I was hoping some of you could give me some insight on this.

The other day a vegan FB friend of mine posted a poster about “foods you may not know contain animal products.” Stuff with gelatin, flavorings derived from actual meat, things colored with cochineal extract (derived from a beetle), etc. It also mentioned the use of isinglass (an extract from the swim bladders of fish) in the clarification of beer and wine. In the isinglass section, it said that although Guinness claims that virtually all the isinglass is removed prior to bottling, it was certainly feasible that some could slip by and (gasp!) end up in your drink. I found the website the poster came from here.

Now, I can think of a few reasons people might be vegan. I don’t really subscribe to any of them, but I can at least understand why someone else might. Many perceive a vegan diet as healthier than one containing animal products (whether that’s true or not, I’ll leave it for others to debate somewhere else). Others do it for moral reasons, basically they think it’s wrong to kill or enslave a sentient being, so they don’t consume/buy products that were made from animals. Again, I don’t want to debate whether that is true or not.

However, neither of these factors really explains the motives behind the people that made that poster, or my friend who posted it. I suppose I could just ask her, but I’m hoping to get a wider response. The health reason doesn’t seem to apply in this case because while it’s easy to claim that eating chunks of meat may be unhealthy (again, I don’t want to debate whether that’s actually true), I don’t think anyone is going to claim that the infinitesimal amount of cochineal extract in red food coloring or the teeny bit of gelatin in a breath mint or pill capsule is going to adversely effect your health.

On the other hand, the moral reason doesn’t really fly either. It would take a pretty big stretch of the imagination to call a cochineal beetle “sentient.” And any vegetable-based diet is going to inadvertently kill a lot more insects than the cochineal industry. And as far as the isinglass thing goes, the people who made the poster are worried that although it’s usually filtered out, a small amount could still end up in the drink. If I was worried about the poor fish that died to produce the isinglass in Guinness, I wouldn’t care if any of it made it into the bottle. The fact that they used isinglass in the first place would be enough for me to boycott the brand.

So help me understand what could be motivating these people. Surely there are other reasons than the two I mentioned (it’s healthy, and it’s wrong to kill things) that explain these types of “not a single drop” vegans who seem to be vegan almost for it’s own sake? Is it because the very essence of an animal product is bad, like it’s vibrational pattern will homeopathically upset your chakras and get your Kirilian aura all messed up or something?

Again, I don’t want this to turn into a debate on the merits of veganism. I’d just like to figure out what makes them tick.

2

Is it not just proselytizing? Or worse, passive-aggressive contempt? Like in the same way that the religious are wont to posting Bible quotations or Jesus-isms, it’s that “Look at me I’m so much better and smarter than you and I’m going to tell you so under the guise of ‘just passing this on.’”

3

I don’t think that the moral reason can be dismissed as invalid in that case.

Also, one reason that you didn’t touch upon very much in your post is the presence of injected hormones, antibiotics, and inhumane living conditions for the animals they kill. You sort of touch upon this with your claim that some think a meat-free diet is healthier, but that implies (to me, at least) that the emphasis is on all meat being unhealthy, as opposed to the commercially distributed meats.

From personal experience … I have known a vegan who has hunted before, I think while being a vegan but I’m not sure. He explained that killing something in the wild, particularly if you’ve been out in the wild for weeks and you’re doing it out of necessary nourishment or in self-defense, is vastly different from raising an animal in such cramped living quarters that they never see the light of day, can’t move more than two inches, and sometimes end up inadvertently eating their own excrement because it piles up at their feet along with their food.

I have known people who are not vegans, but are particular about what kinds of meat/milk they drink, and under certain circumstances may profess to be a vegan to avoid eating meat raised unhumanely. My understanding is that as awareness of CAFOs, pesticides, RGBH, etc. is growing, food distributors are trying their best to manipulate the law to their advantage, thus labeling foods as coming from humanely raised animals when they actually were not, and some vegans may avoid this simply because they can’t be assured that the animals were not abused during their lifetime.

This is also the reasoning behind some pescatarians. Fish tend to be wild-caught, and as a result, they lived more humanely before they died.

In a nutshell, the reasoning behind some of the veganism/vegatarian movement is that while death is a necessary part of any life cycle, abuse and neglect is not. Oh, and coupled with this is the belief that eating an animal that has been injected with hormones is not healthy for the human body.

Not saying this completely explains the logic behind not consuming a candy that uses a beetle-like insect in their color dye, but perhaps it provides another perspective that you may not have been previously exposed to.

4

Not surprising - I have trouble wrapping my head around the motivations of lots of people.

:rolleyes:

Ok, sorry for the eye roll, but this statement is silly. Vegans (generally) avoid ANY products that involved killing or maiming an animal to obtain.

I assume that the Guiness poster is aimed at vegetarians - those who eschew animal products (with the possible exception of eggs and dairy) but don’t go as far as vegans.

So many vegans wouldn’t be interested in the Guiness even if all of the isinglass is removed from the final product because a fish had it’s swim bladder manhandled to produce the beer, making it off limits. It’s similar to how many vegans will research which mill refines their sugar - some mills still use bone meal to grind sugar with and vegans generally won’t consume sugar from those mills either.

It has nothing to do with vibrational patterns, or chakras, or whatever nonsense you spouted up there, and everything to do with the dead animal that was rubbed all over the final product.

Now, it is important to note, vegans come in varying degrees of stringency - one of my good friends is vegan and will still eat a veggie burger prepared on a grill alongside a meat burger because health really is her primary motivation. Many other vegans (and vegetarians, even) will not, because they don’t want traces of meat juice on their food.

Anyway, long rambling answer; however, your OP was written in a long, rambling kind of way so this stream of consciousness blather is what you wind up with.

5

How do they explain eating all the vegetables when they come from fields where rodents and bugs are killed in the harvesting of those vegetables?

6

Not a vegan, so I can’t answer this decisively. But I think vegans tend to have a pretty organic diet, avoiding foods that have been sprayed with pesticides where possible. Often in organic farming, rodents and bugs are killed by other animals, and thus the killing of the animals is part of the natural lifecycle rather than humans coming in and destroying them. And I haven’t known a single vegan who has gone to the extent that they try to keep non-human animals from consuming animals. (I think I did read a thread on here one time about a vegetarian feeding their cat vegetarian cat food, though.)

7

I ate a plant based diet for a couple of years, my motivation was health related. I’d read The China Study and wanted to ameliorate my risks for heart disease. I don’t cook so it was an extremely challenging way to eat, after a while I switched to a primarily vegetarian diet.

8

I don’t think the OP’s question has been addressed yet. The Guinness blurb on the linked site says “Though Guinness says that very little isinglass remains in the finished product, it still could have some traces.” If the concern were merely that an animal product was used in the production of the beer, there would be no point in mentioning any traces – Guinness would be unsuitable for serious vegetarians and vegans on the basis of how it’s made, and what is or is not left in it doesn’t change anything.

The fact that it was pointed out that some residual animal product might be in the beer suggests that it is the presence of that residue rather than the method of production that matters and the implication is that drinking the beer would be okay if it didn’t have some trace of critter in it. As I understand it, the question is why would someone be concerned over ingesting such a ridiculously tiny amount of animal-based substance, when it appears they’re not bothered by using the substance in the first place?

9

They’re still minimizing the amount of animal death necessary for their diet. Those harvests also feed farm animals used for meat, which is a much less efficient use of plants to feed humans.

10

Makes sense. Thank you.

11

Your points are what I was talking about in my OP, although I didn’t explicitly mention possible health effects from hormones or inhumane living conditions for livestock. Basically, virtually all the vegans I’ve met in my life have had a reasonable justification for their veganism that boils down to one of two things (or both): being vegan is better for me, or being vegan reduces the suffering of animals. I can understand both of these viewpoints. But it seems like there’s a fraction of vegans who have some deeper reasons.

No, the eye roll is appropriate - I was trying to emulate some new-age mumbo-jumbo that doesn’t make sense. My point being, is it just that the 1% of vegans that I don’t understand are vegans because they hold some pseudo-scientific view I’ve never heard of? I understand the definition of a vegan that you give, what I don’t understand is WHY they feel that way.

I understand that. But Gary T hit the nail on the head with his comment, so I’ll just quote him:

12

I would think it would be because it is easier to monitor the ingredients in a product than to monitor the entire process that goes into making the product.

13

My ex-housemate managed to find something sold as a vegan dog/cat food for her three dogs (or two dogs and a hellfiend, as I prefer to call them). The fact that the brand exists (even if the dogs all hated it) does suggest she was not alone in this. She claimed that the idea of eating any animal products just made her feel sick; she was mad as a hatter though.

One of her exes appeared to have become vegan solely because the local ‘animal rights’ group was both very active and violent, and he liked getting into fights; so he became vegan so he could hang round with them.

I briefly knew another guy who became vegan seemingly just so he could be smug at everyone, and as an excuse to complain at his housemate. He seemed to hate all animals, and people too, come to that. I don’t think he had much clue about any ethical issues and was pretty hazy on what was or was not vegan.

I have also met a vegan who was happy to use animal products, but would not eat animal products. He made drums from goat skins, but wouldn’t use honey. He’d happily cook meat for his kid too.

Anyway, my point is that probably any reason you can invent will probably be right, for at least a few vegans. You’re not going to get the one answer that makes it all make sense.

14

I think its because they havent really thought through their position very well, at least in the case of the beetles.

15

Once your lifestyle choices approach a religious level of observance (rather than pragmatic/pratical) it’s just like every other religion. You get all sorts of WTFs? and contradictions.

And, BTW, I do get exactly what the OP is asking and I think the question is quite valid.

16

I’m a vegetarian, not a vegan, but I don’t eat meat primarily because it grosses me out. Inhumane treatment of farm animals is also a consideration, though it’s not my main one. Think of the isinglass as a hair in your food. It won’t hurt you, but you don’t want someone else to decide for you whether you’re willing to eat a dish after a mystery hair has been plucked out of it. If you’re at home, you might decide you’re willing to eat that, but you might not feel the same way at a restaurant or a friend’s house. Similarly, a vegger might be okay with the beetle, but not with the fish, or might feel funny about both or neither. I’d say the poster is in the spirit of information; I want to be the one who decides what I’m willing to eat or not eat.

17

After the isinglass is filtered out, what’s done with it? If it can be reused indefinitely, then there would be little or no marginal animal exploitation involved in drinking the beer. But for any isinglass that’s left in the beer, that’s going to have to be replaced from some new fish.

18

My understanding - and please correct me if I am wrong - is that organic food tends to use natural fertilisers, which is an animal by-product. ie. Animal poo. This is probably less vegan-friendly than the user of artificially created (as I assume they are) fertilisers.

19

Vegans in general think it’s wrong to eat animals or use them to produce food. So they want to do everything they can to avoid eating something that’s been made from animals. I’ve been a vegetarian for a while and I do some vegan things, but taken to its fullest extent I agree it becomes silly. I don’t think that when a beekeeper builds two honeycombs so his bees will produce honey he can sell, he has somehow enslaved or taken advantage of the bees in a way that is harmful or unethical. I’m not concerned about harming bacteria either. The other thing that strikes me as odd is the idea that you’d become a vegetarian without finding out about this kind of stuff. I remember looking into it when I stopped eating meat, and maybe even before, so I knew to avoid things like gelatin and carmine.

Vegetables farming is going to kill insects (otherwise you have no crops) and animals (mostly by accident) no matter what. It’s not unreasonably to argue that an unintended consequence that is minimized is ethically different from intentional killing. And knowing that, you can still try to reduce the effects of your behavior on animals elsewhere.

20

I suspect that for many vegetarians the absence of the animal product would be enough. I equally suspect that for many vegans it would not - the fact that an animal product was used in the production would be enough to make it off limits - see my sugar example.

No, the animal is clearly done with the poo so using it is a-ok.