I have it on good authority[sup]*[/sup] that the land is filthy rich in oil. They just haven’t dug deep enough yet.
[sup]*[/sup]What? Some YouTube video I saw once.
Cite?
You can indeed see the same coming from other CTs, like the Kennedy assassination, the moon hoax proponents, the 911 truthers, AGW deniers, the believers of the protocols of Zion, etc, etc.
Can we ask Gack to identify the seventeen countries in which he says it’s illegal to analyze information about the Holocaust?
I’ve heard this several times, so I thought I’d check. I did a google site search to find where the Blobel confession was discussed. I didn’t find it.
Can you point me to an earlier discussion of the Blobel confession? The provenance of the photos of stacks of emaciated holocaust victims? The documentary film the Brits made on entering Belsen? The door to the Krema 1 gas chamber? Anything?
And, as I already pointed out, until someone quotes Wiesenthal, your have no point. In the statement attributed to Wiesenthal, he appears to claim that there were five million non-Jews murdered, BUT NO ONE USES A FIVE MILLION FIGURE. The usual figure is 12 million or 17 million overall, of whom between 5.5 million and 6 million were Jews. Regardless what Wiesenthal may have said, the actual figures compiled by numerous scholars in the last 60+ years has been that well over 6 million non-Jews were murdered. They are not basing anything on Wiesenthal’s 5 million claim; they are looking at the actual records and arriving at much higher figures. Your claim that the number, (which does not even match the number you claim), was made up out of thin air is utter nonsense.
Which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of the reality of the Nazi atrocities. That some person running a museum (or some ill-trained volunteer guide in a museum) happens to get history wrong is a pretty common occurrence. In fact, historical sites that have been treated as museums have only begun getting more serious about the history they present in the last few decades and many have not caught up. (Plimouth Plantation had to tear down all the original log cabins, replacing them with wattle houses, only after they did the research to discover that the lof cabin had not been introduced to North America by 1620.)
Pointing to an error in some guide’s talk as evidence that the Holocaust did not occur is, frankly, stupid.
q. E. D.
Tom, I’m not sure what point you’re going for here. I’ll admit I used the figure of six million Jewish victims and six million non-Jewish victims earlier in the thread. I consider them approximate ballpark figures for the number of people who were killed. If there was a debate saying the total is off by a few million in either direction, I’d concede that could be true. The point I’ll argue against is the claim that the total number of victims is below half a million, which seems to be Gack’s claim.
The point is that Gack wants to pretend that the figure for the number of non-Jews murdered by the Nazis was made up “out of thin air.” In order to “support” his claim, he found a statement by Lipstadt that indicated that Wiesenthal was behaving in a weaselly manner when he used the numbers and Gack drew the wholly inappropriate conclusion that everyone else is just quoting Wiesenthal’s invented numbers.
As I have pointed out, no one even uses Wiesenthal’s “5 million” figure, so the notion that everyone else is quoting Wiesenthal is dead on arrival. Beyond that we don’t know how many non-Jews were murdered, but rather than being made up out of thin air, reputable researchers place the figures between 6 and 11 million, (giving the total numbers of those murdered, (as opposed to the even higher figures for “collateral damage” deaths) in the range of 12 million to 17 million.
Lipstadt may provide a corrective that cautions the reader to be wary of using Wiesenthal as a sole source of information. However, Wiesenthal is not a researcher or historian. He is a person who wants to keep the memory of the Holocaust alive and, given his experiences, he can be forgiven for not getting every detail correct–particularly when we have researchers like Lipstadt who are willing to ensure that we do have legitimate numbers.
Somebody called him a piece of work. He’s delicate.
Am I the only one who noticed this?
It seems that I’m the only one bringing it up, so I guess I will.
There’s a general rule in online debates: whale.to is bad. Well, okay, back up. That’s not the rule. But anyways, whale.to is bad. Really, really bad. Unforgivably bad, filled with more absolutely gobshite nonsense than virtually any other site on the planet. It’s like the perfect storm of alt-med, conspiracy theory crank whackjobbery, and I have no idea how whoever runs it hasn’t been sectioned yet.
The rule is that anyone who seriously will use it as a source instantly loses all credibility and should immediately be disregarded and promptly ignored to death. I don’t know how this hasn’t caught on to the general public in this thread. (Well, you could say that about most holocaust denial websites, but whale.to is really in a whole other league of stupid dishonest crap.)
Here’s an idea: why don’t you present your idea to actual historians. You know, people whose job it is to analyze and examine claims like yours? Take your big, bright ideas and go to Harvard’s history department (or Yale’s, or Cambridge’s, or whatever big university is near you) and see if you can get a professor to take a cursory glance. Or try to compile your thoughts and publish in a peer-reviewed history journal. Because we’re not historians. By and large, the people on this site are not experts in WWII history, or history in general. And even we’ve been able to point out that most of the claims you make are utter crap. But then again, maybe we aren’t “experts”. Well take it to the fucking experts. And then watch as they either laugh at your face or get quite cross with you for wasting their time (and being an antisemitic fool whose ability to analyze sources goes as far as “does this agree with me? If not, ignore”).
But quit bugging us. The holocaust happened. Around 12 million people were brutally murdered in the largest racial genocide the world has ever seen, ordered essentially from the top of the NSDAP regime. This is common knowledge, backed up by mountains of evidence, and those who would deny say, in literally every single case, more about themselves than about anything else.
And I appreciate all those who will combat his stupid misinformation, but at some point, enough is enough, and it just becomes pathetic. Mods, wrap it up? Please, for the love of god, put this tortured pile of crap out of its misery? (The thread, obviously - not the poster)
Okay, I hadn’t known about whale.to’s reputation. But Gack mentioned it in post #221 of this thread - but that point, he no longer had any credibility to lose.
This was not just some guide’s talk, the ‘reconstructed’ gas chamber is fabricated evidence followed by years of lies, that it was in its found condition.
When you study the holocaust it becomes quickly clear that somebody is lying. Here we have fifty years of lies about what is essentially the only gas chamber in existence, except it isn’t a gas chamber, it’s a ‘reconstruction’ of a gas chamber, and the one thing that identifies it as a gas chamber, the chutes in the roof, were added by the Soviets after the war.
So, the Auschwitz state museum and by implication the entire holocaust establishment has been systematically lying about the only gas chamber for fifty years. They continued right up until David Cole revealed the lies to the world.
So, that raises the obvious question, what else are they lying about?
I’d agree with not contesting it too strongly, but numbers are more likely to be too low. The farther east the Jews, the bigger the families, and the worse the data collection. The Soviet Union did not allow a census of Jews. Jews and others did die in the 1930’s famines, but infant mortality was nonetheless in general decline.
Perhaps my five great aunts and four great uncles, and their children, were taken someplace else to be killed. We don’t know because their community was wiped out. But, likely as not, they died in their own town. If so, this line item (you must scroll far down) marks the likely mass grave site of my mother’s parents’ large extended family:
UA05450501 Zhytomyrska Bilylivka 30.05.96
Although I hate to say it in this context, I myself am skeptical of unverifiable personal stories shared on the net, and that’s basically what I just did. So here is a well-documented explanation of what happened in their region:
Even if one grants you that, the examples from Plymouth and Gettysburg shows us that, they are not lying about the important overall reality of what took place. Try again with evidence and not with a stupid point.
Ah, so it’s the Rense of alt-med sites.
What else is the holocaust establishment lying about?
That is where we started, they are lying about the photos presented as evidence of the holocaust. I knew, even as a kid when I saw the photos in a movie theater, that something was amiss. Why would gassing victims be emaciated? It was a sort of cognitive dissonance, but I never thought anything more about it. Now I know why they were emaciated, because they died at the end of the war of tyhpus, they were not gassed during the war, and they weren’t all Jews. The Oprah special opened with her and Elie at the gates of Auschwitz, and within a minute the Belsen pictures are on the screen, while Oprah intones …
“Evil has a name, the holocaust. A systematic mass murder, meticulously planned and executed by Nazi Germany that brutally wiped millions of people off the face of the earth. More than six million of those human beings were Jewish.”
These photos, and this lie, that they are evidence of a Nazi plan to systematically murder Jews, are the primary reason that people believe the holocaust. The people who produced the Oprah special know where the film footage is from, every holocaust scholar in the US knows, and yet not one to my knowledge has revealed the fraud.
Ignorant points, just the constrictions for a TV show are enough to realize that most of the juxtapositions come from collapsing the timeline, it is really silly to assume fraud when what they show are the remaining examples of even worse crimes.
The survivors of the camps were indeed emaciated at the end of the war and the allied troops found them there, the allied troops also found evidence that many more did not make it as they were shot, gassed, burned or already starved or worked to death.
So, five million people were relocated before, during and after the war, and after all this time, with all these stories about how the Germans killed over five million people, not one of them has called or written to say “Hey, I’m alive?”
Kids these days. No respect.