Molotov?
Great. Another bunny cage burner.
I don’t know. I think this proves that the Holocaust didn’t involve chickens.
Somebody should tell PETA.
I think you’re actively wasting your own time if you engage with Gack about this. People explained his poor reading ahead of time and also pointed out the flaws in the “design” of this test. He paid no attention, so he’s probably hoping people will focus on this instead of all the questions he’s refusing to answer or the flaws that have been pointed out in every single argument he’s made.
I burning your chicken.
Regards,
Shodan
Maybe it’s time to revisit the unfair condemnation of Colonel Sanders as poultrykind’s greatest mass murderer.
WHY AREN’T THERE FEATHERS EVERYWHERE???!
The amusing thing is : even if that silly experiment had gone the other way (chicken ashes)… it still wouldn’t have proven a thing, because chicken meat and human meat have fundamentally different characteristics (e.g. intramuscular fat distribution and ratios, muscle to bone ratio and so forth).
But hey, whatever burns his chicken I guess 
I’m not so sure that’s “on the plus side,” since going down in SDMB history as “the guy who set himself on fire in an ill-conceived experiment” qualifies as a step up from being remembered as “the Nazi apologist guy.”
Now if you had taken your burning chicken and thrown it into a scale model of the World Trade Center built out of tongue depressors, while simultaneously claiming that the collapse proved the WTC was taken out by explosive charges… we could have had something really special.
Was Blobel working with chicken?
And if so, was it Jewish chicken or Aryan chicken?
You need to work into the mix Gack fucking a cardboard tube for some reason and it’ll be beyond special… it will be perfect.
The experiment could not have gone the other way, regardless of the composition of the chicken, because the flames barely touched the chicken. For the chicken that was submerged the flames burned above the chicken, and for the parts not submerged the flame burned beside the chicken. Not even the skin was burned completely off.
Let’s review -
The Einstatzgruppen is alleged to have been a major player in the holocaust, killing Jews all over eastern Europe, 35,000 at Babi Yar, 45,000 in the Harvest Festival, and elsewhere for a total of millions (?). And yet, there are no mass graves of victims*. So, the story is, let’s say, unprecedented to begin with, millions dead and no bodies.
The explanation is that the Nazis first buried the bodies, and then these very same Nazis discovered a huge mass grave containing 1000s of Poles in the Katyn forest, invited in an international team of forensics investigators, excavated the grave, determined cause of death, etc., and placed the blame on the NKVD, and only then did they realize that the mass graves they had been creating could also be discovered, and so they set out to make them disappear. Ok, that’s unprecedented too.
So, the got a SS officer who had been relieved of his duties because he was a drunk and gave him the job of scouring eastern europe to dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, and make the graves disappear. Again, unprecedented in human history.
And this officer, Blobel, was captured after the war and asked to state how he made the bodies disappear. And he signs an affidavit saying that they were burned in place. Well, already that is preposterous, if you cremate bodies in a grave and don’t remove the ashes and bones then an investigator can come along at a later date and while not able to identify the bodies still the grave will be there.
But we’re not done, he explains exactly how the bodies were cremated, by uncovering them and covering them with an unidentified ‘inflammable material’, and then waiting till the fire burned itself out, which took 2 days and which he watched personally.
It doesn’t get any more unprecedented than that.
And yet, other than myself, no one here is even skeptical of the whole story start to finish. Why, I’m told it is all supported by a mountain of unspecified evidence.
I’m feeling a little like I’ve been Gacked, myself.
*there was a link to a report of mass graves given earlier which I was going to study, but it turns out that this very topic is a subject of debate between a well know denier (G. Gerdes) and a well known authority (R. Meulenkamp) which I have a link to, and there ain’t no bodies, but that doesn’t stop Muelenkamp)
- there may be a few in Romania and Lithuania
No, actually, there are mass graves at the extermination camp sites, as previously pointed out. These mass grave sites have bone ash, bone fragments, bones, and chemical residue from attempts at body liquidation. Whatever your sources are, they are lying to you.
Incorrect, there were, unfortunately, lots of bodies. Many of the bodies, perhaps even most, were obliterated by cremation or liquidation, but some were not, and remnants remain from some of the attempts.
Considering the huge amount of other eyewitness testimony, and mountains of physical evidence, the possibility that one of them may be less than credible (and you haven’t even established this) doesn’t really affect the conclusion.
There is bone ash, bone fragments, bones, and chemical remnants of body liquidation. Gerdes is incorrect. You have been lied to. Your attempts at poking holes in the mountains of evidence are failing miserably.
I read Muelenkamp’s reply to Gerdes, he cites some ancient report that says ashes and bone fragments and what not were found but there is absolutely nothing emperical about the report which explicitly said that there were no mass graves. And Muelenkamp, with no numbers, just made up some and started extrapolating, etc. The fact is there are no mass graves at the camps or at Babi Yar and elsewhere with bodies in them !
Incorrect. Here are several hundred photographs (warning- some are extremely graphic) of mass graves, bodies being exhumed, Nazis shooting Jews at the edge of mass grave sites, Jews being executed, and (sadly) much, much more. These are tough to look at, but they show numerous events that you deny occurred.
You have been lied to. Himmler is on record as having told Nazi officials that killing all Jewish women and children was necessary for the future of Germany. These photographs are just a small testimony to how close Himmler and the Nazis came to their goal.
These are some of the things Himmler said, from recordings made (and these recordings still exist and can be heard):
*“I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It’s one of those things that is easily said: ‘The Jewish people are being exterminated’, says every party member, ‘this is very obvious, it’s in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we’re doing it, hah, a small matter.’ […] But of all those who talk this way, none had observed it, none had endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or when 1,000 are lined up. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person - with exceptions due to human weaknesses - had made us tough. This is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. […] We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.”
“I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men - in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth. For the organisation which had to execute this task, it was the most difficult which we had ever had. […] I felt obliged to you, as the most superior dignitary, as the most superior dignitary of the party, this political order, this political instrument of the Führer, to also speak about this question quite openly and to say how it has been. The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over.”
“Another question which was decisive for the inner security of the Reich and Europe, was the Jewish question. It was uncompromisingly solved after orders and rational recognition. I believe, gentleman, that you know me well enough to know that I am not a bloodthirsty person; I am not a man who takes pleasure or joy when something rough must be done. However on the other hand, I have such good nerves and such a developed sense of duty - I can say that much for myself - that when I recognise something as necessary I can implement it without compromise. I have not considered myself entitled - this concerns especially the Jewish women and children - to allow the children to grow into the avengers who will then murder our fathers and our grandchildren. That would have been cowardly. Consequently the question was uncompromisingly resolved.”
“It was the most terrible task and the most terrible order which could have been given to an organisation: the order to solve the Jewish question. In this circle, I may say it frankly with a few sentences. It is good that we had the severity to exterminate the Jews in our domain.”*
These recordings are real, and they were said by Himmler. There are other recordings of Himmler, broadcast by the Nazis, that were used to verify that it was indeed Himmler in these recordings.
So we have the architect of the Holocaust trying to steel his men for the task of killing Jewish women and children, we have thousands of eyewitnesses, we have mountains of other documents, mountains of physical evidence, and countless photographs of the atrocities and their aftermath.
On the other hand, Gack has a few doubts about a handful of witnesses.
Gack has been lied to.
Yeah, there’s no evidence they actually did that. I’m sure Commander SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger put together this list of the 137,346 Jews and others Einsatzkommando III murdered in Lithuania with date, location, and number of men, women and children killed and wrote “I can state today that the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania has been reached by Einsatzkommando 3. There are no more Jews in Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.” for no reason and it didn’t actually occur.
You’re giving him far too much credit, he knows full well they are lies.
Dragging in an unrelated discussion from a long dead thread in The BBQ Pit as a personal attack is not really appropriate to this discussion.
Knock it off.
[ /Moderating ]
Got the Gack-centric Debate thread and the Gack-centric Pit thread mixed up. My bad.
OK, let’s take a first look …
There are photos from Lithuania (Vilnius) where there are a few mass graves where Lithuanians massacred Jews. The Nazis are not directly responsible for these graves.
Now we get to Vinnitsia - there are pictures of mass graves of a sort in Vinnitsa, note that there was a massacre of 1000s of Vinnitsians, committed by the NKVD, you can read about it here …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_massacre
The Vinnitsa mass graves were discovered by the Nazis during the war, they invited a team of forensics experts and excavated the graves.
Without knowing the exact provenance of Russian supplied photos of Vinnitsa I regard them as propaganda.
Note that the Russians also committed a massacre of 1000s of Poles and buried them in the Katyn forest. The mass graves were discovered by the Nazis during the war, the Nazis invited an international team of experts who excavated the graves. This was given wide publicity by the Nazis. Nonetheless the Russians clamed that the Nazis had committed the massacre, held trials where perpetrators were convicted, and charged the Nazis with the massacre at Nuremberg. The Soviets created false evidence to implicate the Nazis so I would expect the same for Vinnitsa.
Graves in Warsaw. Not the holocaust.
Now Majdanek (1.29 …) there were mass graves discovered at Majdanek on its liberation by the Soviets, and it appears that despite the Soviets’ record of deceit these are not challenged. They discovered 733 bodies and found that many had been shot in the head, they also discovered cremation remains that would correspond to 3000 cremated bodies.
Majdanek had a crematorium, so I’m not sure why there was a mass grave containing bodies, and have seen no explanation.
In any case the Soviets found bodies plus cremation remains for approximately 4000 prisoners.
On the other hand, evidence was presented at Nuremberg where
“It has been proven that 1,700,000 people were murdered in Majdanek, and that Majdanek was an execution camp in the full sense of this term.”
So, they are about 1,696,000 bodies short of the holocaust.
Note - the death toll for Majdanek has been continuously revised down since Nuremberg and now the USHMM number is about 80,000 and the revisionist number 60,000.