This might sound like hair splitting, but by ‘holocaust denier’ I don’t mean simply people who think it didn’t happen as a result of their ignorance. I mean people who actively deny that it happened and debate it, if what they do can be dignified with the word. They all know that it happened; they know that they are full of shit and they know they are trying to defend evil. It simply is not possible to take the position that the holocaust didn’t occur, debate it, research it and not come to the conclusion that it happened and denying it is an indefensible position to honestly hold. There are creationists who honestly believe what they are saying when they debate the age of the Earth. There are no holocaust deniers (well, I guess barring someone honestly entirely ignorant and trying to debate it for the very first time) who honestly believe the bullshit they are spewing when they debate if the holocaust happened.
If I think that any of my arguments are proven wrong, I will say that, e.g. the flaws in my first experiment were pointed out and noted by me. And, I appropriately modified the experiment.
In a debate there are two sides and a judge, you and others are on one side, I’m on the other, but you seem to think you are also the judge, and pronounce my arguments ‘disproved’. No, we need an impartial judge. As a participant in a debate you don’t get to be the judge too.
I’ve made 10 arguments that I think conclusively show that the holocaust establishment is consistently lying and that the many of the usual beliefs about the holocaust are false. None have been ‘proved false’ to me.
Let’s just take an example … the incredible duplicity of the Vinnitsia photos, this was even addressed, much less refuted.
Its already happened and your side lost:
" Having considered the various arguments advanced by Irving to assail the effect of the convergent evidence relied upon by the Defendants, it is my conclusion that no objective, fair-minded historian would have serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and that they were operated on a substantial scale to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews,"[61] and “it follows that it is my conclusion that Irving’s denials of these propositions were contrary to the evidence.”[3] Furthermore, “the allegation that Irving is a racist is also established.”[62]
You have offered nothing but the normal denialist crap- and every point has been refuted. Even if it wasn’t, your objections amount to a pebble as compared to the mountain of evidence for the Holocaust- thousands of eyewitnesses, numerous mass graves, Nazi documents, and confessions and admissions, among much, much more. You consistently ignore much of the most damning- such as Himmler’s own words.
Even if you established that some photos were not legitimate (and you have failed at this), it would take nothing away from all the other photos and evidence. It’s like Creationists who try to poke a hole in one aspect of evolution- they inevitably fail, but even if they didn’t, it would hardly amount to much against the massive positive evidence.
You’re just like any conspiracy theorist- any contrary evidence is evidence of the conspiracy. It’s ridiculous and sad.
You have demonstrated, time and again, that you will rarely acknowledge error even when it is apparent to everyone. (Your experiment was stupid and you only “modified” it to the point of using more gasoline without using any of the wood and stacking that has been a hallmark of all the pyres of the Nazi atrocities. To “justify” that “modification,” you refer to one description of one event which was not a detailed description, pretending that it was a detailed description when nothing about it indicates that it described the whole process. Stacking the deck in favor of a silly game does not make your “experiment” real and certainly fails to demonstrate that you are open to actually consider flaws in your opinions.)
Are you going to ask me (using my mad Mod powers) to change all your claims of having “proven” something when it was nothing more than your beliefs? The fact that you have failed to persuade a single poster to your position over the course of too many pages of back-and-forth is sufficient evidence (not proof) that your arguments are disproved.
You have put forth ten claims that are, generally, silly on the face of them, (beginning with your complete misunderstanding of how film makers generally employ stock photos and stock movies).
For example, yes, let’s take the Vinnitsia photos. You have mentioned them exactly one time in commentary on a link that does not even include the word Vinnitsia in it. Are you accusing yourself of duplicity in raising the issue of a Soviet massacre that no one else has mentioned? This makes no sense. What do you think you have proven by talking about an incident that no one else has even mentioned and then crying “duplicity!”?
No need to, Irving lost his case in front of a judge.
You are entitled to your opinions but not the facts. Once again, your logic would require us to believe that nothing took place in the past when museums get something wrong.
Again, plenty of your posts show us that you have no good sources, what happened in Vinnitsia and the Ukraine was not just reported with photographs.
Apparently I think I’m doing a better job than some of the other posters give me credit for. Here are some of the points that I have made and demonstrated to my satisfaction …
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The photos of stacks of bodies and bodies being bulldozed that have been presented as evidence of the holocaust for the last 60 years were taken after the war by British/US photographers and show prisoners who had died of typhus.
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There are no bodies of holocaust victims. There is only one excavated mass grave in a ‘death camps’, at Majdanek, and it contains 700 bodies and is located in a forest near Majdanek.
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The gas chamber at Auschwitz, that was presented to the public for 50 years as an actual gas chamber in its found condition, was actually fabricated by the Soviets after the war.
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The featured holocaust eyewitness on the USHMM web site is an obvious pathological liar who claims that he gave haircuts to naked women in the the gas chamber right before they were gassed.
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The featured holocaust eyewitness in S. Spielberg’s Academy winning film ‘The Last Days’ is a obvious nut case who claims she repeatedly swallowed then crapped out five diamonds to keep them from the guards at Auschwitz, and escaped the gas chamber by moving backwards through the prisoners who were being shoved into the gas chamber.
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FDR, and the US state department did not believe the holocaust rumors during the war.
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Henry Morgenthau and the War Refugee Board issued an anonymous ‘eyewitness report’ that they had received from the World Jewish Congress as an official US government report without any fact checking whatever.
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A story of the ongoing ‘systematic and murderous’ extermination of six million Jews appeared in the 1906 New York Times and numerous similar stories appeared during WW II, at least one claiming an impending holocaust of six million Jews.
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Rudolf Hoess, the alleged mastermind of the holocaust, was tortured to obtain his confession. He testified as a defense witness at Nuremberg.
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No defendant testified to any involvement in the holocaust at Nuremberg. The only defendant charged with direct participation, Ernist Kaltenbrunner, testified that he learned of the holocaust from allied radio, and that the specific charges against him were “Entirely impossible”.
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Konrad Morgan investigated crimes by the SS in the camps, he made over 800 investigations, and two camp commandants were tried, convicted, and executed.
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At Treblinka it is alleged that 100 Nazis plus Ukrainians killed, buried and/or burned 10,000 Jews per day on average. This is prima facie preposterous.
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At Treblinka it is alleged that the Nazis used a diesel engine to gas prisoners with carbon monoxide, this is preposterous as diesel engines produce negligible carbon monoxide.
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The method of cremating bodies as specified in an affidavit by Paul Blobel, the Nazi officer who was relieved of his duty because of alcoholism and then given the job of removing all traces of mass graves in eastern europe, is completely unworkable.
Dude, you’ve been on the board only about a month and prior to this train wreck of a thread most of your posts were allegations of evil American Jews controlling and manipulating American foreign policy or posts in which you implicitly argued that most American Jews were extremist Zionists who were more concerned about Israel than the US and you freely admitted to being a strong believer in “Jewish conspiracy theories”.
I’ve asked before and hopefully this time you’ll be willing to answer.
Why do you seem to be so absorbed in patently false Jewish conspiracy theories and why do you have such intense distrust for Jews?
Thank you in advance for your answers.
You have not demonstrated this. Many of the bodies showed clear signs of long-term starvation which would not be present for typhus victims.
There are numerous other mass graves, at the sites of other extermination camps, which are filled with bone ash, bone fragments, and chemical residue of body liquidation. In addition, there are many eyewitnesses and photographs that testify to the many dead bodies disposed of, most notably by the Sonderkommandos.
There is plenty of evidence that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz; whether or not the Soviets rebuilt it (and how they represented it) does nothing to discount the clear evidence of the gas chambers.
Whether or not a single eyewitness was a liar, there are thousands of others. Statistically, of course at least a few of them will be liars.
See the last note. Disproving one eyewitness (which you haven’t done, by the way) does nothing to discount the rest of the evidence.
Even if this is true, it’s meaningless as to whether the Holocaust actually happened.
This has nothing to do with whether or not the Holocaust happened.
This also has nothing to do with whether or not the Holocaust happened. It looks like you’re fishing for a massive conspiracy here.
Whether or not he was tortured does nothing to discount the massive amount of evidence for the Holocaust.
Many defendants and witnesses acknowledged the mass murder of the Jews, even if they did not claim direct involvement. And considering that they faced hanging, it’s not surprising that the defendants said they were not involved.
The fact that the Nazis had a code of laws for Nazis that they enforced says nothing about the Holocaust. The men Morgan prosecuted were generally guilty of things like hiding stolen Jewish property that was meant to go to the war effort.
Your numbers are incorrect- it was several hundred people working at Treblinka.
Whether or not some report got the fuel type wrong does nothing to discount the massive amounts of evidence for the Holocaust.
Only if you interpret the report in an obtusely literal way. If other fuel is included, like wood and trash (and which Blobel’s brief statement could easily include), then the method fits with that witnessed by thousands, including the aforementioned Sonderkommandos.
In short, you’re picking nits and failing even at that. Every one of these points is incredibly weak. And even if they weren’t, all you would have done would be discounted a negligible portion of the massive amount of evidence, including thousands of witnesses, photographs, physical evidence, and more.
And you continue to ignore the statements from Himmler and Goebbels, in Himmler’s own voice and Goebbels’ diary. The Nazis planned to eliminate all the Jews in Europe, according to Himmler. And according to the overwhelming evidence, they succeeded in killing 5-6 million of them.
You failed, and you are being lied to.
Specifically it seems there was also 800 sonderkommandos who helped with sorting possessions and burying and cremating the corpses.
Also no-one is claiming they did 10,000 every day at Treblinka. if we use the low estimate of 800,000 people killed and the fact Treblinka existed for 15 months means an average of less than 2000 people per day. Some days they may have had two trains of 5,000 arrive, but they could take five days to dispose of all the bodies and still be capable of murdering 800,000 in 15 months.
Yes a workforce of 1000 total (100 nazi’s, 100 Ukrainian and 800 Sonderkommando can process 2000 corpses per day.
How can you be so cynical? Why surely Gack’s anti-Semitic drivel elsewhere on the board is entirely unrelated to any agenda he might have for denying the holocaust. Why surely it’s entirely just a coincidence that holocaust deniers of all stripes from Gack here to assholes like David Irving and the fuckwads at the IHR are all some combination of anti-Semites, racists, Neo-Nazis, members of the British National Front or the National Alliance. You almost make it sound like they are conspiring to spread lies about the holocaust not having occurred.
It’s a relatively minor thing in the totality of the bile they spew, but as someone with a passion for history it pisses me off that holocaust deniers have managed to hijack the term historical revisionism to the point that it is taken to mean lying by the general public. What holocaust deniers do isn’t valid historical revisionism; they’re lying and hiding behind the term.
I don’t think anyone doubts that it existed.
Back to Lithuania … apparently the biggest massacre was at Ponary (near Vilnius), from wiki …
*The most notorious Lithuanian unit participating in the Holocaust was the Lithuanian Sonderkommando Squad (Ypatingasis būrys) from the Vilnius (Vilna, Wilno) area which[citation needed] killed tens of thousands of Jews, Poles and others in the Ponary massacre.[10][11][14] *
The wiki article has a long section on the participation of Lithuanians in the holocaust in Lithuania, indicating that the Lithuanians initiated the actions …
*Groups of partisans, civil units of nationalist-rightist anti-Soviet affiliation, initiated contact with the Germans as soon as they entered the Lithuanian territories.[1] A rogue unit of insurgents headed by Algirdas Klimaitis and encouraged by Germans from the Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst, started anti-Jewish pogroms in Kaunas (Kovno) on the night of 25–26 June 1941. Over a thousand Jews perished over the next few days in what was the first pogrom in Nazi-occupied Lithuania.[5][14][15] Different sources give different figures, one being 1,500[5] and another 3,800, with additional victims in other towns of the region.[15]
*
Einsatzgruppen reports claim that the ‘actions’ in Lithuania were encouraged by the Nazis but carried out by Lithuanian anti-communists partisans.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Einsatz_Baltic.html
Ennsatzgrupper reports also describe fighting between armed Jewish groups and the Nazis …
Particularly severe and extensive measures became necessary in Lithuania . In some places – especially in Kovno – the Jews had armed themselves and took an active part in sniping and arson. In addition, the Jews of Lithuania cooperated most closely with the Soviets.
So, this appears to be the reality of the Lithuanian holocaust. The arrival of the Nazis unleashed a series of pogroms against the Jews and a war between Lithanian anti-communist partisans and the Jews, with the Nazis assisting the Lithuanian anti-communists.
Note - the wording of the Einsatzgrupper reports seems suspect to me, too perfect, but anyhow … it contains …
Both in Kovno and in Riga evidence was taken on film and by photographs to establish, as far as possible, that the first spontaneous executions of Jews and Communists were carried out by Lithuanians and Latvians.
This is real documentation, evidence, I’ve seen the film footage at some point but didn’t save the link.
So the Einsatzgruppen encouraged the Lithuanians to kill all the Jews, helped them kill all the Jews, and assisted materially with the murder of Lithuania’s Jews… and somehow this means the Nazis weren’t responsible?!?
In addition to Lithuanian Nazi collaborators, there were also Ukranian Nazi collaborators and Polish Nazi collaborators and French Nazi sympathizers and a whole host of other anti-semites who were only too happy to help out with the Nazi extermination efforts.
I’m not sure who you’re trying to convince of these facts. They have been on record among the various other facts about the Holocaust and they do nothing to vindicate the German Nazis.
But it does beg the question, why are you so eager to throw the Lithuanians under the bus for committing war crimes against the jews but are so ready to defend the Germans? Weren’t they after the same objectives? What makes the Lithuanians and other Nazi sympathisers more culpable than the Germans?
I’d think that having clearly established yourself as an anti-semite, you’d be more inclinde to defend similarly minded anti-semites regardless of their nationality.
Thank you for answering.
And, why is that? Why does no one doubt it? How is the evidence for the T4 Program more definitive than that for the Holocaust? I ask because there is orders of magnitude more evidence for the latter.
Withal, given that you don’t repudiate the T4 Program and the gassing it involved, do you deny that many of its personnel formed the core of workers for the supervision and administration of the gassing of Jews. Is it a coincidence that the same people who were involved in the T4 Program were identified as being involved at Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka, and Auschwitz (e.g. Wirth, Hackenholt, et al.)? Why else would the T4 Project personnel, with their unique expertise, be moved, almost en bloc, to the Reinhard camps?
No, I’m backtracking on that, I’d say the Nazis weren’t solely responsible.
I think of the holocaust in two ways, what actually happened in Nazi Germany, and the massive conspiracy to sell a false version of what happened.
So, the fact that photos of typhus victims have been misrepresented as victims of Nazi gassing for 60 years, right up till today as evidenced by the Oprah show, does not have anything to do with whether or not the holocaust happened, you are right. I’m not fishing for a massive conspiracy, I’m demonstrating it beyond any doubt.
The same is true of the phony witnesses like Abraham Bomba featured on the USHMM web site, and Irene Zizblatt featured in Speilber’g academy award winning movie. False witnesses don’t have anything to do with whether or not the holocaust happened, but using them to sell their version of the holocaust by the USHMM and Hollywood is direct irrefutable evidence of a massive conspiracy.
The fake gas chamber at Auschwitz doesn’t disprove the holocaust, but it does prove a massive conspiracy to sell a false history of the Auschwitz.
The torture of Rudolf Hoess does not prove the holocaust did not happen, it does prove that there is a massive conspiracy to create false history.
The suppression of the British movie made of documentary film taken when they entered Belsen is proof of a massive conspiracy to hide the truth.
The fact that the Russians hid the Auschwitz records for 50 years is evidence of a massive conspiracy.
The fact that the Red Cross has hid the records captured at the German camps is direct evidence of a massive conspiracy.
The publication of documents supplied by the World Jewish Congress as the product of the War Refugee Board, as demonstrated, is evidence of a massive conspiracy to deceive the public.
The list is endless, there is no question that there has been a massive conspiracy to create a false history of the holocaust.
Which no one has argued.
In service of what?