R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance

[astorian]

@Bridget_Burke

Why don’t you use the original flag of the CSA–the Stars & Bars? It’s historically correct but does not have quite the racist baggage as the Battle Flag.

I couldn’t care less what flag is used. As I said earlier, I’m a Yankee. I’d just as soon Confederate flags NOT be flown (and DEFINITELY not over state capital buildings). But over a cemetery or monument to Confederate soldiers? It just doesn’t outrage me. And until last week, even blacks in South Carolina didn’t seem to mind.

It’s worth noting: the bad guy was caught IMMEDIATELY. In short order, he’s going to be convicted without trouble, and sentenced either to death or to life in prison. NOBODY is supporting him or defending him. NO white juror is going to vote to acquit him. If he gets the needle (or do they still have “Old Sparky” in SC?) , no white South Carolinians are going to object. Even Confederate apologists think he deserves it.

So, there really shouldn’t be any controversy here. EVERYBODY agrees that Roof is the scum of the Earth and should get the maximum punishment available. That represents real progress!

The Confederate flag is a nearly meaningless side issue here. If it goes, I won’t miss it. But if it stays over a war monument, that is NOT an invitation to shoot black churchgoers.

[Dangerosa]

@UberArchetype

Maybe we should bulldoze all the confederate cemeteries and war memorials and pretend the Civil War never happened?

We could treat it the way German’s treat WWII. With shame and a healthy fear of nationalism. Instead the South has chosen the opposite - to worship the antebellum South, to remember and allow old grievances to fester. To try and claim the the flag is not a symbol of racist oppression.

Can you imagine if the Germans were to claim that the swastika was a symbol of national pride - that the holocaust was a secondary and unimportant event? And to continue to hold the belief that they were simply defending themselves or avenging themselves from WWI? Yet we’ve lived with and tolerated a similar nonsense from the South for 150 years.

[ElvisL1ves]

@Bridget_Burke

Why don’t you use the original flag of the CSA–the Stars & Bars? It’s historically correct but does not have quite the racist baggage as the Battle Flag.

Sure it does. The CSA was all about slavery.

[Ravenman]

@astorian

I find it odd that the primary result of Dylann Roof’s murder spree has been to launch debates about a completely unrelated topic. But then, that’s been the result of MOST murder sprees in the recent past, hasn’t it?

The Columbine massacre’s chief result was huge growth in the anti-bullying movement. Even though bullying had absolutely NOTHING to do with Klebold and Harris’ crime!!!

The shooting of Congresswoman Gabbi Gifford led to cries for “civility” among conservative political commentators. Even though the shooter had never listened to any conservative political commentators!

And now, a shooting spree has led to arguments about the Confederate flag. Even though the Confederate flag does NOT fly over any state buildings in South Carolina and hasn’t in decades!

When the Confederate flag was removed from state buildings in Columbia, South Carolina, keeping the flag by a monument to the Confederate dead was seen as a reasonable compromise. I STILL think it’s a pretty reasonable compromise.

If you think that the “primary” impact of these murders is a debate about the Confederate flag, you’re getting your news from some other planet. The primary impact is reopening a debate on racism in the United States, of which the Confederate flag is one aspect of that problem. You also see the President using the n-word in an interview, in which he wasn’t talking about the flag.

Plus. how in the world can you not agree that the Confederate flag is part of the debate on racism in the United States? You’re calling the flag a “completely unrelated” issue. Are you joking or something that you don’t see a connection between one of the leading symbols of racism in the South and… racism?

[Little_Nemo]

@astorian

I find it odd that the primary result of Dylann Roof’s murder spree has been to launch debates about a completely unrelated topic. But then, that’s been the result of MOST murder sprees in the recent past, hasn’t it?

The Columbine massacre’s chief result was huge growth in the anti-bullying movement. Even though bullying had absolutely NOTHING to do with Klebold and Harris’ crime!!!

The shooting of Congresswoman Gabbi Gifford led to cries for “civility” among conservative political commentators. Even though the shooter had never listened to any conservative political commentators!

And now, a shooting spree has led to arguments about the Confederate flag. Even though the Confederate flag does NOT fly over any state buildings in South Carolina and hasn’t in decades!

Just a speculation on my part. But perhaps this type of reaction is not as spontaneous as it appears. There are lobbying groups that have a vested interest in diverting public attention away from the topic of gun control and towards topics like civility, bullying, or confederate flags.

[astorian]

@Little_Nemo

Just a speculation on my part. But perhaps this type of reaction is not as spontaneous as it appears. There are lobbying groups that have a vested interest in diverting public attention away from the topic of gun control and towards topics like civility, bullying, or confederate flags.

Damn right, it’s not spontaneous.

Two weeks ago, if I’d tried to start a thread saying “Tear down the Confederate flag from the war memorial in Columbia, SC,” that thread would have died quickly from lack of interest. Oh, almost all Dopers would have agreed with those sentiments, but it just wasn’t that important a topic two weeks ago.

Guess what? It STILL isn’t.

[Jophiel]

@astorian

[…]it just wasn’t that important a topic two weeks ago.

Guess what? It STILL isn’t.

Even if we accept this… so what? You keep saying it’s a good thing and then giving reasons why we shouldn’t be thinking about it. This isn’t the Apollo Program or something here – we’re not spending the next decade and a bajillion dollars on this. People took this moment to evaluate what the Confederate flag means and people are swiftly agreeing that it’s a shitty symbol to keep around, much less give government endorsement to.

What exactly are you upset about?

[Ravenman]

@astorian

… but it just wasn’t that important a topic two weeks ago.

Guess what? It STILL isn’t.

I think it’s been an important issue for the last century. Just because people haven’t thought a lot why a racist symbol should be widely accepted in our society doesn’t mean that we should never think about it, and come to the rational decision.

[ElvisL1ves]

@astorian

Oh, almost all Dopers would have agreed with those sentiments

I strongly doubt that.

[Scylla]

Charlie Chaplin had a toothbrush mustache. But, if I grow one today that is not how people are going to identify it.

Similarly, the Swastika was apparently a fairly worthy symbol before a certain group got a hold of it. I suppose I could get one tattooed on my chest and explain how I am actually endorsing Native American rights, or promoting my belief in reincarnation, and I might technically be justified and correct… But that is not what people are going to see.

During the 80s, while the Dukes of Hazard was on, I bought a really nice handmade wallet with a confederate flag on it, and I carried it for years (I went to College in Louisiana.).

To me, the flag was cool because, you know… The Dukes of Hazard, The Confederates were rebels… Like the rebels in Star Wars, the underdogs. They were scrappy. There was also something iconic in the flag of a lost cause. I knew it was about slavery, but I also knew there was more to it than that simple answer. I remember reading that General Lee had first been asked to lead the army of the North, and how he was torn because he thought there was legitimate reason behind why the South was doing what it was doing, and had it made the same arguments for state’s rights based on taxation, or commerce, or representation, than those arguments would have been worthy. However, in this case you had very worthy arguments and issues being raised for a very unworthy cause.

There was a kind of “doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons,” sort of romantic mystique to throw into the whole “lost cause” rebel sort of thing.

Anyway, so I had the wallet and The Dukes of Hazard was on TV and they drove around in a car with the confederate flag on it, and in that time and place neither of these things felt like they carried any racist baggage to me.

It may very well be that the Dukes of Hazard or my wallet or any other displays of the flag were hurtful to some back then. If so, I was ignorant of it.

Symbols change over time.

I suppose we could argue that their are other contexts to the Confederate flag besides racism that are worthy and that one could display it as an endorsement of these without being an en endorsement of racism, and I suppose we could all grow toothbrush mustaches to show that we are Chaplin fans and get Swastikas tattooed on our chests to show our belief in the circle of life and reincarnation… And we might, in some strange way be technically correct.

By the same token, as I’m standing there waving my confederate flag, sporting my Hitler mustache, while my Swastika Pulses on my pectoral, I should hardly be surprised if people get the wrong impression and don’t recognize that I am simply a romantic Chaplin fan who believes in reincarnation. The symbols have changed.

Bottom line, confederate flags, tooth brush mustaches, and swastikas are all active symbols of racist white supremacists at this time. If that’s not what you believe in, don’t use them.

The flag needs to come down.

[RickJay]

@Bridget_Burke

Why don’t you use the original flag of the CSA–the Stars & Bars? It’s historically correct but does not have quite the racist baggage as the Battle Flag.

Well, no, it has MORE racist baggage.

The “Battle flag” was the flag of a specific military formation. The actual CSA flag was the flag of a would-be nation state created primarily to ensure they could retain the institution of slavery.

[Ravenman]

@astorian

Two weeks ago, if I’d tried to start a thread saying “Tear down the Confederate flag from the war memorial in Columbia, SC,” that thread would have died quickly from lack of interest.

It just occurred to me that if you were not defending the Confederate flag, this thread, too, would quickly die for lack of interest; because other than one or two other drive-by posters, everyone else posting here agrees the flag needs to go.

[Bridget_Burke]

@RickJay

Well, no, it has MORE racist baggage.

The “Battle flag” was the flag of a specific military formation. The actual CSA flag was the flag of a would-be nation state created primarily to ensure they could retain the institution of slavery.

But the Battle Flag is the ones the neo-Confederates masturbate into.

[RickJay]

@Bridget_Burke

But the Battle Flag is the ones the neo-Confederates masturbate into.

Point taken.

[Deeg]

@Little_Nemo

But they didn’t deny it.

I love this response and wish I had thought of it first.

[Grotonian]

@bup

It’s a fair analogy.

The colonies were committing treason against the crown.

But they never claimed the crown were the aggressors, and they were just defending themselves. They claimed they were under a tyrant and fought it. And won.

And if they’d lost, you wouldn’t see American flags flying on British government grounds with the bullshit excuse, “It’s heritage!”

So you’ve never been to Quebec, eh?

[ssgenius]

I guess this means that the old Dukes of Hazzard shows will have to digitally edit out the flag on the General Lee:D

[Tread]

@russian_heel

SOOOO much so THIS:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/after-charleston-a-battle-against-the-confederacy-is-waged#.pa1VDvBLA

Let’s cut through decades after decades of Southern “revisionist” history:

1. Cutting through the “economic and social reasons” and “States rights” crap, the bottom line is the Civil War was about the South wanting to keep slavery, and the North stopping them. North=Good . . . South=Evil

Then why didn’t all Confederate States rejoin the Union in the last quarter of 1862?

[BrightNShiny]

@Tread

Then why didn’t all Confederate States rejoin the Union in the last quarter of 1862?

Instead of making us play guessing games, why don’t you actually lay out your argument.

[jayjay]

@Tread

Then why didn’t all Confederate States rejoin the Union in the last quarter of 1862?

Seriously? Because the Emancipation Proclamation was only enforceable by the Union government. The Confederate government wasn’t going to just lay down their arms because Lincoln made a proclamation. Only as Confederate areas came under Union military government did the EP actually take effect.

This is an incredibly disingenuous argument.