Yes, a tragic accident. Does anyone believe that the Israeli govt’s policy is to kill non-combatant Americans? This woman knew she was putting her life in danger. Those who support her cause should mourn her death, but celebrate that she gave her life in battle. Can’t do that? Then you don’t believe in the cause.
And this is supposed to make me think that standing in front of a bulldozer is a smart idea?
It’s not a smart idea on a construction site in Pennsylvania, and it’s not a smart idea in Israel or in Gaza.
She did a stupid thing, standing in front of a bulldozer. It’s sad that she died because of it, because that was easily avoidable by not standing in front of heavy equipment.
I have about the same amount of sympathy for her as I do for anyone who does something incredibly dangerous and dies because of it, which is that it’s a tragedy they died, and a tragedy they contributed to with their own error in judgment.
So catsix, someone who put’s their life in danger for a cause they believe in desevrves to die? The IDF were just about to demolish the home of a family of 12, who at the time were still in it. If the driver wasn’t aware she was there (given the evidence an imposissbilty), why did he, run her over with the blade, then put the bulldozer in reverse and run over her again?
This business about putting the bulldozer in reverse and running over her again… Are you suggesting that somewhere the order was given, “Kill the American!”, and then the dozer ran over her, and backed up on purpose just in case 50 tons of steel didn’t kill her the first time over?
Why do we assume such evil motives? If a car backs up over a person in a parking lot, we don’t assume it’s murder. We assume someone wasn’t paying attention, unless proven otherwise.
The Israelis have nothing to gain through killing an American, and a lot to lose. America is their ally, and they don’t want to anger the American ‘street’. I see no motive here, and lots of opportunity for errors that could have led to this. So, my assumption until proven otherwise is that this was a tragic accident, and nothing more.
No, I am certainly not suggesting that this killing was ordered and yes the Israeli driver also may well of been aware of her nationality (earlier she climbed into the cab to persuade the driver not to demolish the house). it certainly wasn’t done for any strategic advantage. But I do know a few internationals in Palestine and they have been threatened numerous times, with guns and grenades by the IDF with very little provacation.
Surrounded by murderous Palestinian terrorist thugs, screamed at by dupes of lying Islamicist propaganda and you wonder at the nervousness of young IDF peacekeepers?
[explanation of post] Wonderful what adjectives can do, isn’t it? [/explanation of post]
I don’t think it has anything to do with evil motives, though I think it has everything to do with a complete disregard for human life.
We’re not talking about running a person over with the tracks of the bulldozer, we’re talking about crushing them with the front blade and then backing up without lifting the blade up. Lifting the blade up by as little as a foot may have been the difference of this person being dead or just injured.
They’ve not only been threatened, but some have been shot, shot at and beaten.
Brutus, here.
I’ve never really understood the whole house-bulldozing strategy. An Israeli spokesman said it’s supposed to deter terrorist attacks. How the hell does that work?
Anytime someone so young dies is a tragedy, yet her death is not a triumph for human rights. Her death is meaningless, and the passion and idealism that she could have employed to make postive contributions to the the world are gone forever. You don’t win a battle by dying for a cause, but by living for one.
I for one, resent the idea that if a driver sees someone go in front of their bulldozer they should assume that they’ll just get out of the way. Therefore the driver isn’t culpable because they were just following orders.
Furthermore we have eyewitness accounts which claim that the driver could clearly see her. That narrow window stuff is flat out bull.
Also as someone who knew her, that Darwin Award crap is extremely disrespectful to the sanctity of human life. You should really think twice about human life and death and understand that people in the news aren’t just for your entertainment.
How would “eyewitnesses” know what the driver could or could not see?
I have assisted at coroner’s inquests in the past. One case I did, a very upsetting one, involved a man who assumed that the driver of a cement truck could see him - or at least, that was the conclusion the coroner came to. He couldn’t.
In that case, the driver drove over the poor man - and then, alerted by the yells and screams of witnesses, backed over him again. Just like the instant case, actually.
The poor driver (who was as you can imagine very upset about this) escaped a finding of the coroner which may have led to charges of criminal negligence, dispite several witnesses who (reluctantly) testified that they thought the driver could clearly see the fellow.
One thing I learned at that inquest was that you can never be sure of what the driver of heavy equipment can, or cannot, see - especially directly in front or behind. Unless of course you are a driver of such equipment yourself, and familiar with the blind spots.
The coroner’s jury recommendations in that case were that cement trucks should be equiped with (a) more visibility features, such as perescopes and mirrors, to cover blind spots; and (b) more warning features, such as signs and lights, to alert people to the existence of blind spots immediately in front and for some distance behind. They also recommended more safety training for both drivers and workers who work in close proximity to such machines.
Now, I don’t know whether the driver in this case could see her or not, never having been behind the wheel of such a vehicle. The only person who could answer that question is the driver; the only people who would have a clue, would be people who have driven similar equipment. Certainly not bystanders.
I note that a couple of people with experience on these types of machines have stated that visibility is poor. I would tend to listen to them, not to bystanders who have no knowledge of the workings of this sort of heavy equipment.
But please, don’t let these observations get in the way of a nice head of indignation. If you prefer to believe that this is an obvious case of murder, I am sure noting I could say will change your mind.
{{{{errata}}}}
I find it disgusting that people seem to find amusement in this. Did you find it amusing when the four US churchwomen were murdered in El Salvador in 1981?
I believe that I am the only one to mention the flag-burning here, though I could be wrong.
I am neither:
(a) shocked by it; or
(b) of the opinion that she deserved death (or indeed any punishment or harm at all) because of it.
So you may stop beating up those particular straw men.
I merely stated that this was not an activity that I associate with a “peace activist”, perhaps because I naively assume that the term means those who work, or agitate, for peace. And teaching kids to burn flags is contrary to the ideals I associate with working for peace.
I can believe that there were blind spots and can even accept that at the moment she was crushed he did not know exactly where she was. However, blind spots do not extend indefinitely, and I find it incredibly hard to believe that the driver had no clue she was ever in front of him. When when someone passes out of your view whilst driving heavy equipment it is not safe to assume that they have safely gotten out of the way, * especially when said person is trying to block your forward progress*.
Yes, she was creating a very dangerous situation for herself, I wish she had been more careful. But to completely exonerate the driver and blame it all on her is ridiculous. He was not an automaton, he was aware the protestors were taking chances, and he could have shown more caution.
re: flag burning
I had just come from some other boards were some trolls were posting some awful stuff (“I have seen those on other message boards who have said she deserved it.”). These boards were more focused on the activist community and I felt a little respect should have been shown since a lot of the people there knew her. I wasn’t addressing anyone in particular here with that, just filling people in on what was happening with this discussion in the electronic community and stating my opinion about it.
No. Although I wasn’t too old at the time and not aware of political events. Did they also become a subject of ridicule?
If it was policy to knowingly play chicken in a bulldozer with a human, then the IDF are completely at fault.
Deserves to? I don’t recall using those words. I certainly don’t think that someone who deliberately puts their life in danger should be surprised if the result of that is death. I skydive. I knowingly put my life in danger every time I jump out of a plane. Do I deserve to die for that? I wouldn’t say so, but if I did, I don’t think anyone should sit around saying it was a surprise. It’s because I assume the risk of a dangerous activity that I also accept the responsibility to face the consequences if something goes wrong. Is the same onus on someone who stands in front of a hundred ton piece of heavy earth moving equipment?
Have you ever worked in or around heavy equipment? I have. I’ve been on dozers, and I know how impossible it is to see a person on the ground who is directly in front of even a small bulldozer without an enclosed cab. No way can an eyewitness on the ground figure that just because they can see the bulldozer, the operator can see them. It doesn’t work that way, and it’s the entire reason that when working on and around that equipment, it’s the responsibility of the people who are on the ground to always keep the machinery under observation and be able to get out of the way of danger.
I don’t think death is entertainment, but I do think that her death was something she could have easily avoided had she made a more informed decision about standing in front of heavy equipment. Whether you knew her or not, Rachel Corrie’s actions directly contributed to her death due either to foolhardy arrogance about her ability to stand head to head with a bulldozer or ignorance about how much time she’d have to get out of the way when it became apparent the dozer was not going to stop. She messed up, and it’s a tragedy that she died because of it, but she is not just an innocent victim.
That may very well be the case when people have jobs to do around heavy equipment and they are actively trying to avoid them. However when people are having a direct confrontation and with the operator and the operator cannot ascertain where they are, the operator should stop trying to use the equipment. Try to convince me it was sensible to keep bulldozing when he didn’t know where she was. Is that what you would have done?
I’m not screaming murder here, but I find it hard to believe this could have been anything better than willful negligence.
It’s obvious to all she was taking a great risk. I bet even she knew she might lose her life that day. She gambled on the driver’s humanity and common sense and she lost.