Racial/Ethnic Slurs and Physical Violence

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
Not wanting to get too far into this thing, but I’ll say this: it is precisely because of what Askia threatens to do, I believe, that we don’t see people generally spouting the “n-word.” I don’t think I have a problem with that.

Let’s face it. Not everyone has evolved to the realization that racially derogatory language is just not part of being civilized. For a certain segment of the population, the reality that an ass-kicking is imminent is precisely the way they’re kept in check.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but while this does apply to some people, i absolutely reject the notion that any substantial portion of the population is prevented from using words like “nigger” purely through the threat of violence. Most people, in my experience, refuse to use the word because of its history and its reprehensible connotations.

And, even for people who are as you describe, it strikes me that reacting violently to their use of that word would only confirm in their small minds the thoughts they already have about black people.

82

[QUOTE=mhendo]
it strikes me that reacting violently to their use of that word would only confirm in their small minds the thoughts they already have about black people.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Lord knows I’ll lose a lot of sleep over that. :rolleyes:

83

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
I’m surprised nobody has taken this to the Pit yet. Perhaps they’re afraid of Askia tracking them down and breaking their nose?
[/QUOTE]
Just say the word, man. Just say the word. LOL.

84

[QUOTE=Shodan]
But if I was a juror, and somebody told me they attacked a person who called them a n****r, I would not vote to acquit.
[/quote]
If that was the only evidence you heard, you’d be quite correct. If that was the only evidence you considered, ignoring any other evidence offered regarding my character, my temperament, my clean record, or anything negative about the person I assaulted who insulted me – you’d be a miserable failure as a juror and a prejudiced one, would you? My

For one thing, I’m no longer associated with the Nation of Islam.

Regards.

85

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
I think everyone has a hot-button issue that might cause them to fly off the deep end; Lord knows I’ve seen enough meltdowns on the SDMB over issues like sexual assault and child molestation. Sounds like this might be Askia’s. Personally I couldn’t make a blanket statement about how I’d react, because it doesn’t affect me in the same way, but I’d be plenty pissed and yes, depending on the context, I might be inclined to try to whup someone’s ass…
[/QUOTE]
I want Hippy on my jury!

86

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Sorry, but while this does apply to some people, i absolutely reject the notion that any substantial portion of the population is prevented from using words like “nigger” purely through the threat of violence. Most people, in my experience, refuse to use the word because of its history and its reprehensible connotations.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve had way too many conversations individually, and observed them on TV and media raising the question, “Why can’t White people say ‘nigger?’ Black people use it all the time!” My response is always, “Why, do you want to say it? Go ahead…”

I see it as a forbidden fruit kind of thing where a lot of people would love to say it, just because they’ve been told not to.

87

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]

I see it as a forbidden fruit kind of thing where a lot of people would love to say it, just because they’ve been told not to.
[/QUOTE]

That is why people tend to get a dumbass grin on their faces when they use it in a “friendly” context.

Examples:
“That’s my nigger! Man that nigger can hoop! That’s one smart…”

If I knocked out eveyone that attempted to test the waters around me, I would have been locked up long ago. In these situations it is usually significantly more effective to use your words to educate. With regards to people who use it in an aggressive manner, well they are their own. I certainly will not be shedding any tears if they get something broken.

88

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
I’ve had way too many conversations individually, and observed them on TV and media raising the question, “Why can’t White people say ‘nigger?’ Black people use it all the time!” My response is always, “Why, do you want to say it? Go ahead…”

I see it as a forbidden fruit kind of thing where a lot of people would love to say it, just because they’ve been told not to.
[/QUOTE]
Well, personally, i’m well aware of why black people can use the word and white people shouldn’t, and i have no “forbidden fruit” temptation whatsoever.

The only time i will ever use it is in situations where its actual use is being discussed (like in this thread), and when i’m teaching American history to undergraduates. The word pops up in many historical texts, whether by white authors like Thomas Dixon using it in a hateful manner, or by black authors like W.E.B. Du Bois illustrating its racist origins. Simply pretending it doesn’t exist is silly, and constantly saying things like “the ‘n’ word” in class is, in my opinion, unprofessional and ahistorical.

But all this is completely different from using it as a way of referring to African Americans.
[QUOTE=Askia]
Yeah. Lord knows I’ll lose a lot of sleep over that. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Well, i wouldn’t expect you to. You apparently lose no sleep over being a violent thug, so why should something like that exercise your interest at all?
[QUOTE=Askia]
If that was the only evidence you heard, you’d be quite correct. If that was the only evidence you considered, ignoring any other evidence offered regarding my character, my temperament, my clean record, or anything negative about the person I assaulted who insulted me – you’d be a miserable failure as a juror and a prejudiced one, would you?
[/QUOTE]
Well, if i were a juror, your character and temperament and your clean record are not something i would be very interested in when determining your guilt. Either you’re guilty of breaking the law by assaulting someone for a verbal insult that carries no actual physical threat, or you’re not. It might be that things like your character and temperament and clean record would be considered as mitigating factors at sentencing, but they don’t really weigh very heavily in determining your guilt.

And, by the way, if this ever becomes anythying more than a hypothetical discussion, and you do ever end up in court for beating someone who insults you, you should probably hope that the prosecution isn’t able to connect you with the posts you’ve made to this thread.

89

[QUOTE=Askia]

That said, a physical response not an acceptable excuse for every verbal provocation; it does vary upon the situation. But if I decide that’s it, I’ve had enough – I’ve got damned good reason.

[/quote]

So YOU get to decide when it’s okay? What if I decide that the word “orange” entitles me to beat the ever loving shit out of people? Because “I” decided this.

Uh, you doubt it why? Are you saying you’re legally entitled to shoot someone YOU deem to be a racist scumbag?

90

[QUOTE=Frosted Glass]
If I knocked out eveyone that attempted to test the waters around me, I would have been locked up long ago. In these situations it is usually significantly more effective to use your words to educate. With regards to people who use it in an aggressive manner, well they are their own. I certainly will not be shedding any tears if they get something broken.
[/QUOTE]

I agree Frosted, but you are doing a huge favor to people who feel it’s okay to “test the waters” in that way. There’s the educational approach, but I can think of only one time in my life when I heard someone use a word innocently that was hopelessly out of date, and I rushed to that person’s defense. These “water testers” you mention are the sorts that place their hands on hot stoves, despite centuries of evidence that this is A Bad Idea.

Back to the example. I was an orientation advisor at the University of Texas in the early 1990s. We had an orientation session on diversity, assisted by a tape of various dolts at Rutgers (one had a great quote where he said he felt “a racial attitude coming on” as he cracked his knuckles). We then went to a room to discuss it with incoming students. Once, a young lady mentioned that she had never attended school with colored people - and immediately turned bright red, realizing that she’d used an out-of-date word. It seemed clear she was overwhelmed with the diversity she’d encountered for the first time. I told her it was okay, that the term “African American” or “Black” were preferred, and most people seemed to roll with it. One student did mention that it freaked him out that people were so unexposed… easy to say if you’re from the city, but let’s face it - there are small towns where Whites live in certain areas across the tracks, and people of color don’t…

91

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
So YOU get to decide when it’s okay? What if I decide that the word “orange” entitles me to beat the ever loving shit out of people? Because “I” decided this. Yes, but your example is patently ridiculous and holds no basis in reality.

Cite where I used to the phrase legal entitled. I’ll wait patiently over here, eating this red-yellow blended Sunkist citrus fruit.

92

You keep saying, “Oh, I won’t go to jail, I won’t go to jail!” Why the hell not?

I got news for your-that racist would be on the phone bitching to the cops that some “motherfucking nigger” just beat the shit out him. He wouldn’t SEE himself as provoking it, because, well, he’s too stupid.

I’m not shedding tears over a racist getting his ass kicked, but I don’t see how a society can work if we keep going around beating the shit out of everyone who offends us. There’s no such thing as the right not to be offended.

93

Askia, any verbal insult about you or your family is lame. Any racial slur is lame. It has meaning only if you allow it to. It’s like saying, “Okay, I am willing to put you fully in charge of my emotions. Have at!” Why would you make yourself so vulnerable to others?

You know that you don’t have to respond with rage at the mention of THE WORD. Why do you have to do exactly what that white man wants you to do in the first place?

Or another man can say something about your mother and you know he doesn’t even know her, but he yanks your chain like you are an animal. Did you ever try choosing not to react that way?

You and your family didn’t get where you are because of a lot of rioting. The non-violent marches were confrontational, yes. And they were loud. But they didn’t make threats and they didn’t hit back. They were strong without being physically belligerent.

I know that I cannot ever know the kind of hurt and anger that you have experienced in your life. I just think that you have a strength within you that you are unaware of yet.

“Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.”
– Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

94

[QUOTE=Askia]
If that was the only evidence you heard, you’d be quite correct. If that was the only evidence you considered, ignoring any other evidence offered regarding my character, my temperament, my clean record, or anything negative about the person I assaulted who insulted me – you’d be a miserable failure as a juror and a prejudiced one, would you? My
[/quote]
Well, not to make this personal, but if you came across in court as you have been in this thread, your character and temperament are not themes you should stress if you don’t look good in an orange jumpsuit.

As far as the “anything negative about the person” you assaulted, I would already know that he called you a racist name. And that you considered this to be a complete justification for assaulting him (I am assuming that this is a man, although you have made somewhat related threats against children and old women). And I am responding in turn that I don’t think this is going to work with me.

“The cracker had it coming for dissing me” is not something that a civilized society accepts. I would guess that most violent criminals who are not motivated by money believe that their actions are justified - “the bitch had it coming”, “the little bastard wouldn’t shut up”, “he called me a name” - all excuses.

None of the ones I listed are even good excuses.

Non sequitur, as I suspect you might know. Your religion doesn’t enter into it. It’s the attitude to which I object, and that doesn’t seem to have changed.

Regards,
Shodan

95

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
Not wanting to get too far into this thing, but I’ll say this: it is precisely because of what Askia threatens to do, I believe, that we don’t see people generally spouting the “n-word.” I don’t think I have a problem with that.

Let’s face it. Not everyone has evolved to the realization that racially derogatory language is just not part of being civilized. For a certain segment of the population, the reality that an ass-kicking is imminent is precisely the way they’re kept in check.

[/QUOTE]

Not so very long ago, it wasn’t unheard of for a black man to be given a beating for just whistling at a white woman. Kept them in check. That wasn’t a good idea then, just as this current line of reasoning isn’t a good idea today.

96

I think, after reading your comments these last few days and responding as honestly as I can, there’re fundamental issues here I don’t think many of you will ever see eye-to-eye with me about.

This will be my last statement on this particular subject. Thank you. Even where we disagreed I found this edifying.

97

There is no acceptable reason to hit another person. period. You have no excuse and no right to do so. If you do you are stepping way over your rights. If someone is offensive walk away. Go home. What the hell does hitting someone prove. Think about how you look when you strike someone and try and convince me its about your dignity.

98

Okay. I’ll bite. Calling someone a name does not mean you can hit them. There is a boundary between words and actions, and I don’t want to reference a nursery rhyme. It’s simply true. If I call someone a name, walking down the street and they hit me, they have no right to do so.

It’s not right to call anyone a name, either. I certainly don’t condone that, but responding to hate with violence certainly runs contrary to everything Dr. King and Ghandi stood for.

You fight violence through non-violence. Things get accomplished that way. After Ghandi, India declared non-violent demonstrations illegal. Why? Because they work.

(finally posted in the right damned thread)

99

This thread is beginning to go in circles, echoing a situation explained in some of the first posts. It’s making it seem more likely that someone will become involved in a fight where someone threw a racial slur at him not because they’re racist but because the insultee was being a total asshat :slight_smile:

100

[QUOTE=Askia]
I think I’m peaceable… until I don’t think I should be.
[/QUOTE]

Some people aren’t racist, until they feel they should be.

“I’m not unless I am” is the call of the jerk.