''You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, ‘You are free to compete with all the others,’ and still justly believe that you have been completely fair. Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates."
cite?
And what present injustice justifies a 2 standard deviation boost in SAT scores?
Yes but slavery and jim crow did.
We no longer have de jure racism. We don’t even have much defacto racism. We have to invent new terms to describe the sort of imperceptible racism that is holding back URM.
And what if the action was for the black community to change things on their end? Stop out of wedlock births. More responsible fathering. Placing more value on education. Reducing the level of violence in the community. What if the studies come back and say that these are the predominant issues driving black/white disparity?
Name one country in the history of the world (where there were multiple races) where patterns of racism did not exist?
Asians are underrepresented compared to where they would be without the racism.
How about farming while black?
I’ve been asking about Hispanics since my first post and its been ignored since then.
So how about you try addressing my questions once, then if I keep shifting the goal posts on you, come back to me.
The Vietnamese refugees with the means and abilities and drive to make a very difficult journey made the journey. Those without the means and abilities and drive did not. This is just a fact. That’s very, very different from the circumstances under which Native Americans and African Americans were brought to or forced to move within America.
The best analogue for Vietnamese immigration in the 70s is Jews in the late 18th/early 19th – the Jews who had the means and abilities and drive to escape pogroms and other forms of brutalization in Europe did so. Those who did not, remained.
I understand you have incredible contempt for the black community (millions and millions of decent Americans whom you insist on denigrating and casting blame upon with your language), and believe that they are “toxic”, but I’m really not interested in getting into that again. Your contempt for the black community is no more valid now than Bull Connor and his allies was in the 60s.
I’m not sure what to tell you at this point. I don’t even know what you are arguing anymore. “Asian students are hurt by AA policies that benefit Black and Hispanic Students”? Is that it?
So there was an evolutionary aspect to which Vietnamese refugees made it to our shores? The weak ones didn’t make it or couldn’t leave at all? There was some form of natural selection going on?
I don’t believe that black people are toxic. I think their culture is toxic, there is a pretty big difference but you knew that.
The rate of unwed motherhood is inexcusably high. The rate of absentee fathers is inexcusably high. The rate of violent crime is inexcusably high. The rate of high school dropouts is inexcusably high. And yet you insist on making excuses.
Heaven forbid someone suggest that perhaps the black community is doing something wrong because that would be racist, amirite?
Sure racism exists but there gap between blacks and whites in academics approaches 2 standard deviations, its worse when compared to Asians. Every immigrant group has done it and it looks like the Hispanics are doing it as well. Don’t you think blacks can do it? Why can’t we focus on the cultural legacy of slavery and segregation? Why must it always be someone else’s task to lift up the black man? It is a very partronizing attitude to take towards the black community. Perhaps even racist.
I know you feel uncomfortable dealing with the idea that there is something that the black community could be doing better and that it might not all be the fault of the white man that things aren’t getting better. In fact I would propose that at this point, the socioeconomic progress of the black community is hampered more by the legacy of slavery and segregation in black culture than racism. We can work on both but you seem to insist that we only focus on one to the exclusion of the other.
My argument is that Asians are discriminated against:
“Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them”
I know several Asian alumni who insisted that there was no discrimination because they had conducted interviews and the scores they handed in were based on what they judged to be very fair criteria. As it turn out, the alumni interview program was more of an alumni outreach program to keep them connected to and feeling god about their alma mater.
Huh? If you want to make this argument, feel free. If you want to disagree with anything I’ve said, then say so, and say specifically what I said that was wrong. I’m pretty sure my assertions were tautological.
Snipping the rest, since it either belongs in a new discussion (seriously – if you want to shit on millions of decent black people, start a thread about it… please don’t shit on millions of decent black people in every thread even slightly related to AA or racism), is contemptuous nonsense, and/or has nothing at all to do with anything I’ve said.
Who’s that? I’ve never heard of that poster. :rolleyes:
In any case, what I said was that racial inequalities are a result of racist actions, past and present. I did not say that all the differences between any given demographic groups is due to racism, and certainly not “racism is responsible for all differences between races”, as while I recognize that there are different demographics with different generational and possibly even genetic differences that may have drastic results upon the outcomes, if given equal opportunity, I also recognize that “race”, and “races” are constructs originally created by racists in an effort to reinforce their preconceived notions about demographic populations that share superficial characteristics, and to prevent their assimilation and sustain them as “other”, and as such I do not believe in the idea of “race” as a useful way of grouping people.
On the other hand, in order to combat the pervasive nature of the effect of racism on our society, we do need to recognize the that racists, both active and simply complicit, see superficial characteristics, and so in order to combat that racism, anti-bigotry efforts do need to address the same superficial characteristics to be able to identify and understand the victims of racism.
If there is a serial killer out that is targeting people with red hair, is it somehow unfair treatment to non-red haired people that the red haired people are given extra protection from the police?
Maybe, but if there is an AA policy enacted, that means that SOME race is being discriminated against. Doesn’t it?
I’d hazard a guess that it slowly started to happen after
a) The American military got its arse handed to it by an Asian country
b) the American economy got *its *arse handed to it by Asian economies
It’s close to the same rationale for why under Apartheid Taiwanese Chinese, Japanese and South Koreans were classified as honourary Whites. Other Chinese were classified as Coloured - because Taiwan was a major trading partner of that junta and the PRC was not. Bullies (and racists are very much bullies) only respect those who can hurt them in turn - in this case, economically.
It means that some people are being discriminated against. Any tool that weighs perceived race will have instances where worthy people are denied an opportunity due to their race. If the tool is powerful enough to counteract all actual discrimination in the selection process, it will deny opportunities to bright/naturally skilled members of other races who lack resources. If it is not powerful enough to do this, it will still allow personal discrimination to continue.
The “racial realist” argument is easy to refute. I think I’ve already done it once in this thread but it’s apparently racism month so maybe it was a different thread.
Anyway, let’s accept for the sake of argument that everything you say is correct: black people have significantly higher rates of illegitimacy, absentee fathers, violent crime, poor education. We’ll throw in unemployment too.
What do we do about this? Do we shrug our shoulders and say “Black people. What are you gonna do?”
Some people do. They somehow feel that identifying a problem is enough. Ignoring the problem is their follow-up.
I don’t buy that. If a problem exists we should be doing something about it if we can.
So why do these problems exist? Are black people doing this to themselves? Is there something inherently different about black people that makes them have more bad traits than non-black people? Do they have genes for crime and poverty and bad education and poor family life?
Or is this something that’s being done to black people by external forces? Are black people in America growing up in an environment that leads them to crime and poverty and bad education and poor family life?
So which is it; inherent traits or external forces? Nature or nurture? If you argue it’s an inherent traits, then I want to see the science to back it up. Otherwise it’s just a baseless belief.
And if you don’t believe that it’s an inherent trait, then it’s external forces. And there’s a catch-all term for external forces that treat black people worse than non-black people; it’s called racism.
You can claim that “the black community is doing something wrong”. I look at the same situation and say something wrong is being done to the black community. And we should be stopping that something.
That assumes that all cultures are exactly equal. In general, if a trait regarded as a defect is part of a culture, then it is neither an inherent trait nor something imposed from the outside. Rather, the members of the culture tend to have the trait and/or enforce it in the community, and the traits perpetuate through growing up surrounded by the culture and its values.
I do not want speculate on which supposed traits of the African-American community are real, let alone which of these real ones are cultural traits and which are imposed by the outside. I just wanted to say that it is not necessarily the case that all cultural characteristics are imposed from the outside (!) or are inherent in the people (!!)
All things being equal, and a true equality of opportunity being offered to all, then I do think that, when scrutinized closely enough, we would find slight variations based on inherent characteristics of specific demographic groups.
Two problems with that, though. First, all things are not equal, and there is not a true equality of opportunity for all. People are labeled by the skin color, and treated accordingly without ever considering their actual abilities. Secondly, a characteristic as loose as the pigment of one’s skin does not do anything to narrow a person down into a particular genetic cohort. There can easily be a wider gulf in ancestry between two people of dark skin than there can be between a black and a white person, so grouping people by skin color is worse than useless, well, except to racists.
You don’t hear blacks folks talking in hushed tones when white folks go about shooting up their local movie theatre, open-air concert, elementary school, high school, college, or church. You don’t hear black folks chatting about white folks eating their tide pods, their semen-covered oreos (yes, this happened), snorting condoms through one’s nasal cavity (yes, this happened), when white kids stab each other over a fictional character called the ‘slender man’ (yes, this happened), or when your high functioning Asperger’s adult child refuse to leave your home. You don’t hear a goddamned peep from black folks. Not a single one.
You didn’t hear blacks folks complain when you rape and sexually assault your white women. And aside from Brother Crews, we ain’t say shit. Blessed Be the Fruit, as it were. We just find it funny that ya’ll white males scream about being the defenders of white maidenhood but ya’ll are it’s most ardent defilers. Projection at it’s finest. Ya’ll don’t give a shit about your women: and it shows. You don’t hear blacks complain when you guys voted for Trump, either. We already knew you; you only surprised the white liberals (who stupidly believe you can be redeemed).
You don’t hear blacks talk about how white life expectancy is down, how you’ve conveniently forgot what redlining, Jim Crow, and segregation was, how you’re not having children, how you’re entangled in an opioid “epidemic” (btw, heroin is not a disease), how your spoiled kids are consumed with hate, how your white fragility makes any conversation about race in America like pulling teeth, how your spoiled baby boomer parents and grandparents have burdened this country with trillions of debt because they’re too damned cheap to pay their taxes, how you elect liars, con-artists, and rapists to public office, or how you’re embarrassing yourselves and the country you purport to love every single day. We don’t speak or say shit about white folks faults; we wait, and we vote.