Addiction is a disease, actually. And yes, when thousands of young people die yearly from overdoses it can be called an epidemic. We can have conversations about race. But not when one party is coming from a place of resentment and a sense of moral superiority.
Also, you talk about hatred, but you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder against whites. You talk about fragility, but you yourself seem triggered.
You also talk as if black people don’t vote, or haven’t voted in the past 70 years for mostly the same shitty leaders who have lied and gotten us into debt. And how are “we” embarrassing “ourselves”?
You act is if your race is immune to internal problems, but isn’t. Every single race has its own faults, mine and yours included.
That’s just dancing away from the question. Culture comes from somewhere. In your opinion, does black culture come from inside black people or does it come from outside black people?
If you feel that some aspects of black culture come from inside black people and others come from outside, could you give us some examples of which aspects came from each?
Let’s use a specific example. Do you feel higher crime rates among black people is something that arises inside black people and is part of their nature? Or do you feel that higher crime rates among black people is a product of the environment they live in? If you took some white people and they had grown up in the same environment, do you feel they would have the same high crime rate? If you took black people and they had grown up in a different environment, do you think they would have had a lower crime rate?
I think Huey is a troll playing a part, an agent provocateur here to raise racial tensions. All of his posts have been aimed at whites in bigoted ways. Literally all of them. Either he’s a troll or genuine bigot. Either way, people like him are part of the problem, not the solution. I’m a white man. I recognize my race’s flaws. But I also recognize flaws are part of being human, regardless of race. There are problems unique to each race and culture. Some are internal, some external. The way forward shouldn’t be demonizing whites or blacks for their internal problems in their cultures, it should be in trying to figure out how to bridge the gaps between us. If we keep pointing fingers at each other we’ll never get anywhere.
OK, so you agree that this would be the obvious solution, but somehow , for reasons, you think that we shouldn’t work towards the obvious solution, but rather keep the current division of people in categories according to skin tone which create the problem in the first place, presumably so that your great great grandchildren will still have a racism issue to keep them busy.
I would note that we seem to be perfecty able to function without dividing people in categories according to hair coulour, so there’s no reason to assume we couldn’t do the same with skin hue. There’s no obvious non cultural reason why it would have to be different. Providing that we stop lovingly nurturing these arbitrary racial divisions, of course.
By the way, you can still prosecute people for discrimination without aknowledging “races”. Just send to jail equally anybody who discriminates on the basis of physical appearance, be it on the basis of their delusion that there’s a latino race (picking this one because you guys invented it recently) or their strong dislike of short people. If it happens that there are much more people jailed because they don’t like sun tan than because they don’t like short stature, then so be it.
You were the one asserting that whatever characteristics A-As might have or not have is necessarily either imposed on them from the outside or inherent to them, which isn’t true.
I had to read your posts a while to make sure that you were asserting this, but then I read these weird questions:
No, their crime rate would remain the same because of their genetics :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I did say that. I’m standing by it. I certainly don’t see it as a controversial position. If a person’s characteristics don’t originate inside that person or outside of that person, where is there left for them to come from?
Okay, I’m assuming that’s a sarcastic no. So you’re agreeing there’s nothing inherent in black people that causes them to commit crimes. Crime is a response that develops because some black people grow up in environment that encourages crime.
To me, that says we should work on changing that environment. Not just for the sake of the black people who are growing up in it (although I feel that’s a very good reason) but also for all of the future victims of their crimes.
“Tell it to the racists” is a bit of a flippant answer, but you do realize that the people who need to hear this message are not the ones who acknowledge that racism is stupid, right?
My whole argument is that this “obvious solution” won’t work. Because it can’t work. Because the people interested in implementing it are diametrically opposed from the people whose cooperation are needed to implement it! Even given the most simplistic, nonsensical view of racism, where racism is a conscious decision, racists aren’t just suddenly going to accept colorblindness. They’re racists, why would they? They already believe black people are inferior, they aren’t going to suddenly become colorblind because we ask nicely. And they’re the ones who would need to become colorblind!
Throw in subconscious racism, implicit bias, systemic racism, and continuation of past racism through inertia (for an excellent example of that, check out ContraPoints’s video on Freddie Gray and Baltimore’s lead problem), and the concept becomes even more unworkable. People who have an implicit bias against black people are not going to spontaneously become colorblind. Applying colorblindness is not going to, to pick one of countless possible examples, spontaneously make doctors start taking black people’s pain more seriously, because they aren’t choosing to be racist - the bias is, by and large, subconscious.
TL;DR: colorblindness does nothing to address anything but conscious racism, which is a tiny portion of actual racism. And when dealing with conscious racism, the only people who will agree to it are the people who already aren’t consciously racist. Colorblindness does nothing to actually solve the problems, and only takes away the tools needed to see that there is a problem and address it directly.
Okay. And if the discrimination isn’t worthy of jail time? Or isn’t immediately apparent in individual interactions? Or takes literally any form other than “an individual obviously mistreating someone in a way that is obviously and overtly due to their skin color”? Or, to put it another way, if the discrimination happens in reality?
“Outside of that person” includes “other people from their same sub/culture.” In which case the characteristics are imposed but from within their own culture. I must stress again that I am not saying that this is the case here, but it seemed like you were dismissing the possibility out of hand. Do you agree that cultures exist that have different characteristics from others?
I agree with all of this, and that it would help, to the extent that crime is concentrated in these areas, which I’m not even sure about anymore, which is why I did not want to speculate on it. The very least we can do is continue to attempt to relieve poverty, no matter what race the people are perceived to be.
I’m don’t feel I’m dismissing the possibility out of hand. But I won’t accept it without some shred of evidence that it’s true. And the people who argue that black people commit more crimes because it’s their nature haven’t produced any evidence to support their claims.
So I’m dismissing the theory of black crime genes. But I’m doing it the same way I dismiss the theory that there’s a sea monster living in Loch Ness. It’s not an unfounded dismissal.
I do. But it seems that ardent anti-racism militants want to keep dividing people according to their skin colour, so why would you expect others to act differently? Why would a kid who has been told from the earliest age that there black people and there are white people, and it’s not at all the same thing think differently once he reaches adult age?
There will never be an end to racism as long as “races” keep being aknowledged as a sensible concept.
Since when who you want and don’t want to date has been considered a criminal offense? Who you want or don’t want to hire is a completely different issue.
The “races” are only acknowledged by the racists, however, as I have said, identifying the victims of racism is necessary in combating it, and the victims of racism are going to be pretty much the same people that the racist victimize.
Being “colorblind” just ignores the problem. “Hmmm, these random individuals seem to have difficulties getting a job or housing, even though they are just as qualified on paper as these other random individuals. What could possibly cuase that?” This may seem to be confusing, until you note the superficial differences between those two groups of random individuals, and take not e that that superficial difference is being taken into account, actively by racists and bigots, but still implicitly by many people who would claim not to be a racist or bigot.
You are looking to change anti-discrimination laws, and make them far harsher and for any form. You didn’t say anything about hiring, you just said “anybody who discriminates.”
So, assuming that you are up for clarifying, I also do note that you also only say based on physical appearance. Would you extend that to religion, national origin, and possibly even sexual orientation? Are there any other groups you would include/ disinclude?
Also, am I allowed to discriminate against someone because I just don’t like them? I have fired a few clients over the years for being assholes to myself or to my employees. In order to show discrimination, you really need to show a pattern. If I kick out a black guy for being an asshole and cursing at my staff, I’m not discriminating against him for being black. Can I discriminate against someone just because I don’t feel like dealing with anyone that day? If a black person calls me up, and wants an appointment, and I’m just not up for talking to people that day, did I discriminate against him for being black?
So, the onus is really on the claimant/prosecution side to show a pattern of discrimination, and that is really something that can only be done if you take into account features that the racists take into account.
Like I said, if you want to end racism, go talk to the racists. They may enjoy your speeches. If you want to perpetuate racism, then keep doing what you are doing in calling out those trying to find ways of combating racial inequalities for pointing out those inequalities.
Racists are targeting a specific groups of people, and the solution is to just say “What groups of people? I don’t see any groups of people!”, and the problem just disappears?
Affirmative action and other race based preferences are a fairly extreme solution. The problem has to be fairly extreme as well. I guess you think the problem is extreme enough (absent a history of slavery and segregation) to justify discriminating on the basis of race. I think that the history of slavery and segregation is necessary to justify such an extreme departure.
OK, then how about I just ask for a cite to the notion that the vietnamese are particularly wealthy well educated or motivated (beyond being motivated to survive and be free).
Just calling it racism doesn’t make it so. I suppose people will buy it on this site but just saying that there is a problem with black culture isn’t the same thing as shitting on millions of decent black people.
and of COURSE it is relevant to what you said. I quote:
“you have incredible contempt for the black community… and believe that they are toxic”
By your reasoning any criticism of the black community or culture is racism. Its like saying that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism.
I can live with a reasonable amount of AA and if as a side effect Asians don’t have a shot at every seat in the entering class, that’s OK, frankly I don’t have a problem with reasonable quotas. What disturbs me is the active discrimination against Asians. The deliberate attempt to minimize the asian population because there are already too many of them.