If someone were to bring up issues that they have with white culture, how much consternation do you think that would cause?
You have said that black culture is toxic in the past, I don’t know if you have repudiated those comments. If you have, then you have no need of defending them, but if you have not, then yes, that is racist.
Now, if you want to talk about culture that ends up being imposed on people due to poverty and oppression by an over presence of an aggressive LEO agency, along with underfunded and performing schools, that’s a whole different thing, and something that should be looked at with the idea of mitigating the damages that those conditions impose upon a culture.
To just accuse those in the community and culture of being toxic, with no context of both past and present injustices being perpetuated upon them, is to ignore the reality of a complex situation, and make oneself content with the idea that it’s their own fault, so no help is either justified or even called for.
I didn’t say that. Please tell me which sentence in the following you disagree with: “The Vietnamese refugees with the means and abilities and drive to make a very difficult journey made the journey. Those without the means and abilities and drive did not. This is just a fact. That’s very, very different from the circumstances under which Native Americans and African Americans were brought to or forced to move within America.”
You want to criticize the culture of inner city Chicago gangs, feel free. But the “black community” as a whole? Prince George County Maryland? The many other prosperous and generally positive majority black localities? Be specific if you want to point out the wrongs of Americans. Blaming all black people for the sins of a relative very few is racist and morally reprehensible. Most black people aren’t doing anything wrong. There’s nothing to blame for the vast majority of the “black community”. If you want to cast blame, then be specific, and cast blame on those that deserve it, not regular Americans doing their best.
Really? Why is it racist to say that a culture (or subculture) that results in high rates of violent crime, high truancy rates, high teen pregnancy rates, high rates of absentee fathers, it toxic? This seems a lot like you’re saying that criticism of black communities or culture is racist. If so then why do you think that criticism of the black community or culture is racist?
Sure, their current culture is shaped by their history. I’ve said that in the past. I said that the lack of commitment to education in the black community compared to the Asian community might be traced back to education leading to more persecution for blacks in America and education being a reliable means of social mobility in Confucian cultures. But apparently that was just me saying how much better Asians are than blacks.
At some point you have to stop making these excuses. The answer cannot be, its never their fault. What do you think accounts for the high rates of teen pregnancy (after you correct for socioeconomic factors)? What accounts for the higher rates of violence and murder within the black community than other communities? How about the high rate of absentee fathers? all of this after correcting for socioeconomic factors. Are the racists making them do this?
Of course, racism is also a factor but it is no longer the primary factor, hasn’t been for a while now. Its culture, and focusing on repairing the toxic elements of their culture is more efficient than trying to stamp out racism. We have passed pretty much every law we can to stamp out racism, so at this point you are trying to control how people think about blacks. You aren’t going to change that with AA or by calling everyone a racist.
Nobody is making that claim here…but it’s nice to know that that is where you draw the line at helping people-anything short of “100% victim” means they don’t deserve a boost up.
I am still waiting for a cite that the Vietnamese refugees were better off.
This sounds like a more politically correct version of “Vietnamese refugees sometimes came over with gold bars in their underwear” argument to try and explain away their relative success.
I thought I WAS being specific. I pointed to the high rate of violent crime, the high rate of teen pregnancy, the high rate of absentee fathers, the high rate of academic failure and truancy. These things are not the result of a few outliers.
Sure the violent crime is the result of a small fraction of the community but there is a statistically significant difference in the level of violent crime in the black community versus other communities. There is a persistent and consistent violence gap between the black community and the rest of the country.
After making a mighty effort to follow your mutated “logic”, I’ve concluded that your whole position can be summed up like this:
You must give me a definition of race and a detailed description of “White”, “Black”, etc, that satisfies ME.
If you can’t to MY satisfaction, that somehow proves that liberals are wrong in being concerned about racism, the acceptance of diversity, and equality for all.
Despite being confronted with the absurdity of my “logic” by numerous people, I’ll continue on with this nonsense.
The comment was not about white acceptance of Asians (and frankly, whites haven’t accepted Asians, they resent Asians horribly). It was about why Asians were doing better than other minority groups.
K9Bfriender claimed that racial disparities were the result of differences in skin color:
"Can you explain where racial inequality comes from if it doesn’t come from treating people differently based on their skin color? "
Asian academic success preceded the end of the Vietnam war and my recollection at the end of the Vietnam war was not one of grudging respect, it was one of pretty open bigotry. We had done a pretty good job of dehumanizing Asians during the Vietnam war and WWI before that.
Why are there so many attempts to explain away the success within the asian community and excuse failure in the black community?
I never said that. You might want to reread the text that you quoted and tell me how you get from there to what you say here?
I’m not even against affirmative action. I just think it should be limited to the descendants of slaves and American Indians. I think AA is a pretty extreme solution and should only be applied to the most extreme situations. I think genocide, slavery and segregation easily falls into that category. I don’t think that the levels of racism we see in society today justifies a 2 standard deviation in SAT scores. I certainly don’t think a desire for “diversity” is enough to apply such dramatic racist standards.
If you want to challenge something I said, quote the specific words you disagree with. None of this coy and unspecific shit. Quote the sentence you disagree with, and tell me why you disagree with it, and what you want a cite for. ISTM that the words I said about Vietnamese refugess were essentially tautological, the equivalent of “those strong enough to lift 200 lbs can lift 200 lbs”.
None of this requires words like “toxic”, “aberrant”, and blaming the entire community for the actions of a relative few. Especially when you’ve shown (IMO) such personal contempt, by the language you’ve chosen, for the entire culture/community.
Various statistical disparities exist and a part of the conversation. I think there’s plenty of very solid evidence (presented in many other threads) that the ultimate cause of these disparities is some combination of government, institutional, and societal forms of discrimination, both from the past and in the present. You might disagree. But then you skip ahead and just say “toxic culture/community!”, personally maligning the way of life of millions of decent Americans, most of whom are not hurting anyone and living their life the best they can. And when you do that, you’re going to get some pushback. Casting blame and aspersions on millions of decent, struggling folks helps no one and does a lot of harm – it’s indeed part of why there’s so much injustice still going on in this country. I’m criticizing you because you’re being a part of that, even in a teeny-tiny way.
Is this not the post I was replying to? Are you drawing some sort of distinction between “acceptance” and “not racist/treat well”?
I wasn’t addressing the timing of the success. I was addressing the timing of the White acceptance of the same.
Did you skip over the word “slowly” in my first post on this? I didn’t say anything as simplistic as the “Vietnam War->acceptance” strawman you seem to want to tear down here.
I don’t know - why is there so much effort invested into arguing against every explanation offered as “explaining away” and “excusing”?
I object to the use of “toxic culture” because I object to most generalizations when it comes to policy. But maybe DA is using the term “black community” to describe a socio/cultural/political system, like whiteness or white people. I think you can handle it. That doesn’t require you to like the term. Being bothered can be a good thing. Isn’t that what you said was okay, hereand here? How is what DA is doing any different than what you did a couple weeks ago? Would it make any difference if he called it “blackness” instead?
If that’s what he believes, he can feel free to make that argument.
Do you honestly think that creating a brand new usage for a phrase many might find offensive is the same as using terms commonly used by academics and professionals in the relevant field? I don’t.
Yes. The bright side is that, having already done this exhausting mental exercise, you won’t have to repeat it in order to understand his positions on any other issues.
Equality for all makes no sense in a racial framework. If equality for all is a goal, you would have to focus on individual inequalities. Liberal rhetoric instead focuses on equality of racial averages. Once the average black is “equal” with the average white, there would remain inequalities on an individual level.
To support equality for all demands radical individualism.
“The Vietnamese refugees with the means and abilities and drive to make a very difficult journey made the journey. Those without the means and abilities and drive did not. This is just a fact.”
You didn’t merely say that the refugees that made it here were the ones that were able to make it here, merely the ones that had the opportunity. You applied qualitative factors to the refugees. They had means, ability and drive. I keep asking for a cite for this “fact” and you keep asking me to point out what I disagree with.
You are saying that the Vietnamese refugees were a select group of people selected out of the general population of Vietnam. They were wealthier, more able and more determined than Vietnamese. So please provide a cite.
It doesn’t REQUIRE I use the word toxic but I believe that toxic is the best descriptor for an environment that does this to its inhabitants. You are basically getting offended because I dare to use the word toxic in the same sentence as the word black. No one is forcing black women to have children as teenagers. No one is forcing them to have kids out of wedlock. No one is forcing the men to abandon their responsibilities. No one is forcing them to have high rates of criminal violence. No one is forcing them to place such a low value on education. These are things that they can change no matter how much white people hate them. But they don’t because some people (perhaps people like you) keep telling them that nothing is their fault.
Sure racism plays a role and perhaps racism is why the culture is the way it is. But at some point self determination has to become a factor. I think your excuse making is much more harmful than me pointing out that many of the problems in the black community are not being forced on them but are the result of a toxic culture. You are telling the black community that they can’t do it on their own and they need white people like you to lift them up out of darkness into the light because they cannot do it on their own, because the racism is too overpowering.
Perhaps you are coming late to the conversation but here is the chain of posts:
In post 247 I ask:
K9Bfriender in post 249 replied:
I replied:
This is where you come into the picture. In that context of K9Bfreinder blaming (pretty much) all racial inequality on racism, I asked how Asians were able to succeed in the face of racism and you said because of the Vietnam war. I am pointing out that the success preceded the end of the Vietnam war so the absence of racism doesn’t seem to be the reason for Asian academic success.
So you have no idea why you are trying to tear down Asian success and excuse the lack of success in the black community. Perhaps it racism.
I thought it was pretty clear that when I said black culture, I was talking about black culture and not black people. For example, at various points, I mention how racism penalized academic focus in the black community and that might be informing the low value black culture seems to place on education. I don’t know how you fight this but I do know that placing a low value on education is toxic.
I don’t see the need to give offense unnecessarily, so what terms to academics and professionals use to describe the toxic elements of black culture? I think toxic is a very appropriate word to describe its effects but if academic and professionals using some other word, can you point me in the right direction? If the word is descriptive of the problem I see, I will use it to spare your feelings. But I got the impression that you don’t really approve of anything that might be critical of anything related to black people.
Is this not the post I was replying to? Are you drawing some sort of distinction between “acceptance” and “not racist/treat well”?