Racist Britain

[GorillaMan]

@Aldebaran

I’m always amused to see how people sheeply consider the “result” of a “poll” as represenative for a whole nation, group, society.

1000 citizens have answered some questions - that most probably don’t leave much space for other then yes/no answers - and that is “representative” for the mindset of all citizens of the UK?

Here’s the full results of the survey, so you can see exactly how thigns were presented: Food Technology - Mori formerly Cambridge Crops, Boston

[Reuben]

@GorillaMan

And I’m astonished at your arrogance, telling the Irish that they don’t have a cultural identity of their own.

Hell and damnation, there is nothing I hate more than some stupid cunt telling COMPLETE FUCKING LIES about what I just said.

You maggot. You blind, simple, pathetic pustule on a leprous whore’s anus. Go back and fucking well read what I wrote, then tell me EXACTLY where I said or implied that the Irish have no cultural identity of their own. Fuck you, hard, and with a rusty spike.

[Aldebaran]

Thank you for the link.
But do you see much else then stereotypical questions offering the possibility to stereotypical answers, with no possibility to give nuances?
One can be in agreement with something yet have some reasons to disagree with some aspects of the situation. Which is impossible to bring across in such “polls”.

Aside from that : Are you convinced that “questioning” 1000 people gives you insight in the mindset of a whole nation?

If yes then you agree that organizing nationwide elections is absurd, because 1000 votes will do ?
Salaam. A

[jjimm]

@Aldebaran

Are you convinced that “questioning” 1000 people gives you insight in the mindset of a whole nation?

It’s not ideal, Aldebaran, but surely you concede it’s the only way to do it? It certainly gives more insight than not asking 1,000 people their opinion…

Reuben, alas the Irish in Britain have been targets of racism for much the same reasons as any other ethnic group is - colour and culture (though I think you’ll find it’s more different than you think) notwithstanding.

[yojimbo]

@Reuben

The two peoples generally look the same, speak the same language, have a relatively large degree of mutual respect

Bolding mine.
I did get a giggle out of this. While you won’t be killed over here anymore I’d ask any English person like jjiimm or curly chick how many people showed them respect. Lots are nice but on the other hand lots still hate the English. Unfortunate but true.

[ruadh]

@Reuben

ruadh there’s nothing ‘unnatural’ about children from different races playing together! It’s a hell of a cheek to imply that I said that. It seems that I’m talking about “culture”, a nebulous concept to be sure, but it doesn’t matter because you’re only hearing “race”.

I perhaps should have added that the boy spoke English with a foreign accent that I presume to be African. Culture therefore comes into play here as well. So, I repeat: what’s unnatural about it?

[Celyn]

The headline was scary, but, looking at question 7, perhaps things are not SO bad.
(Funny, every time I see one of these “representative” polls, I wonder why in my 42 years, I have not encountered any of the pollsters. Of course, I might not have a 'phjone, or I might not choose to answer the 'phone to callers I do not know, or I might, as indeed I do, Keep my number unlisted… I am not convinced about the accuracy of most of these polls and I suspect telephoen polls might be among the worst.)

[GorillaMan]

@jjimm

I’m English. I live in Ireland. Would you expect me to seek out a ghetto of other English people so that I can live in the same “culture” as them? Or does that idea sound as completely bonkers to you as it sounds to me?

@Reuben

jjimm of course it’s bonkers! But it’s a bad example to pick, because the divide between Irish and English is not that big. The two peoples generally look the same, speak the same language, have a relatively large degree of mutual respect, and have been very well known to each other since the dawn of time.

@Reuben

…some stupid cunt telling COMPLETE FUCKING LIES about what I just said…fucking well read what I wrote, then tell me EXACTLY where I said or implied that the Irish have no cultural identity of their own.

So if the divide (or absence of divide) you talk about isn’t a cultural one, what is it? And surely you’re then misrepresenting jjimm’s question?

[Neurotik]

Not meaning to interrupt the pissing match going on here between Reuben and pretty much everyone else, but why is this so shocking? If these same results came in the US, would any of you be shocked? Of course not.

So you have a bunch of old people and some young people who don’t like living next to minorities. Is this such a big surprise? Leopards don’t completely change their spots in a generation.

[Planet_of_the_Shapes]

Take a look at Q7 from that Mori link GorillaMan posted.

Apparently in answer to that statement “Having a mix of different people in an area makes it a more enjoyable place to live” 65% of people would definitely agree or tend to agree.

In answer to the statement “I would rather live in an area where people are from the same ethnic background as me” 39% of people would definitely agree or tend to agree.

This means 4% of people think that having a broad mix of people is an area makes it more enjoyable, but they would rather not live there. Presumably whenever they encounter any sources of enjoyment or pleasure in their life they make a mental note to avoid it in future…

[Miller]

@Reuben

What exactly is the problem here?

What is wrong with preferring to live among those you perceive as your own kind? It’s more a cultural than a racial thing - the desire to be among those people with whom you share a history, heritage and folk experience.

Must be nice to be able to tell who shares your culture just by looking at the color of their skin. Wish I could do that. As it is, I actually have to <shudder> get to know people before I can find out what I have in common with them. As a result, my friends tend to come in an unfortunate variety of shapes and colors. I’d much prefer a matching set.

According to that article a large %age of people from all races in Britain admitted to having this desire, and I personally suspect the real figures would be a lot higher if we didn’t live in the age of PC where people feel they have to lie and disguise their feelings about such things.

I cannot articulate how much I hope you are wrong about that.

If you think about it honestly surely you can understand that it’s only natural? Not racist, bigoted, ignorant, hateful, or anything other than a harmless and natural preference.

Well, yes, I suppose it is natural. Hatred, suspicion, and fear of anything perceived to be different do, indeed, seem to be natural human impulses. More’s the pity.

ruadh there’s nothing ‘unnatural’ about children from different races playing together! It’s a hell of a cheek to imply that I said that. It seems that I’m talking about “culture”, a nebulous concept to be sure, but it doesn’t matter because you’re only hearing “race”.

When you say that it is natural to want to associate with people of the same race, you are strongly implying that it is unnatural to want to associate with people of different races. If this isn’t what you meant to say, fine, but don’t blame other people for your ham-handedness with the language.

I just don’t understand what you are saying here. What assumption that “all [non-whites] are first generation Britons”? What is a first generation Briton anyway?

A “first generation Briton” would be a British citizen who was not born in Britain. Their children would be second-generation Britons, their grandchildren third-generation, and so forth. The point cazzle was making was that, as Britons, jjimm and Angua have more of a shared culture than jjimm and myself do, despite the fact that jjimm and I are similarly tinted.

And, since it’s impossible to look at any other aspect than racial, let’s focus on the point that a comparable number of non-whites apparently feel exactly the same way as whites do. Was that completely lost on you, or just conveniently ignored in your scramble to express moral indignation over those evil, bigoted 40% of whites?

And who, exactly, in this thread has said anything remotely similar to that? Racism is racism, no matter what color the racist.

GorillaMan, perhaps it’s a matter of opinion but when dealing with something as vague as a poll, then in my book 26% and 40% are definitely in the same ball park. To put it another way, only 14% of non-whites felt differently than whites. Comparable enough for you?

Good to see its not just American schools that are failing to teach their students mathematics.

jjimm of course it’s bonkers! But it’s a bad example to pick, because the divide between Irish and English is not that big. The two peoples generally look the same, speak the same language, have a relatively large degree of mutual respect, and have been very well known to each other since the dawn of time. All superficial stuff, but it counts for a lot. Probably more than it should, but why pretend otherwise? I have never visited Ireland, but I imagine I would feel quite at home. Why would I want to seek out other English indeed?

Yeah, Irish-English relations are truly a shining example of international brotherhood and goodwill towards your fellow man. On an unrelated note, how’re you enjoying that crack habit?

@Neurotik

Not meaning to interrupt the pissing match going on here between Reuben and pretty much everyone else, but why is this so shocking? If these same results came in the US, would any of you be shocked? Of course not.

So you have a bunch of old people and some young people who don’t like living next to minorities. Is this such a big surprise? Leopards don’t completely change their spots in a generation.

I read the tone of the thread to be more depressed than shocked. “People suck,” isn’t exactly news, but it’s no less disheartening to see that things continue to not change.

[hibernicus]

@Reuben

the divide between Irish and English is not that big. The two peoples generally look the same, speak the same language, have a relatively large degree of mutual respect, and have been very well known to each other since the dawn of time.

When you say “well known to each other”, are you using the phrase in the same sense as when the newsreaders say “well known to the police”?

[don_t_ask]

Although I would expect a poll like this anywhere to find that some people don’t agree that Having a mix of different people in an area makes it a more enjoyable place to live and some people will say I would rather live in an area where people are from the same ethnic background as me I am dubious about the actual figures quoted.

The poll is designed in such a way that people who have no opinion are forced to select tend to agree or tend to disagree (poll participants are generally reluctant to choose don’t know).

Only 8% of participants definitely disagree that having a mix of different people in an area makes it a more enjoyable place to live.

Only 18% of participants definitely agree that they would rather live in an area where people are from the same ethnic background as themselves.

I am pretty sure that the first question in particular would summon up a lot of indifference. Notice that it doesn’t ask anything of the participant other than their subjective level of enjoyment created by a mix of different people. To me it makes a huge difference but to many social groups, who cares. For the housebound, the elderly, people who go to work and go straight home, people who don’t eat out or go out, or the kind of people who find an overseas holiday too daunting their life isn’t improved by a social mix in their neighbourhood. But that is a far cry from saying they object to it.

Similarly with the second question, my answer would be I don’t care. I don’t consider the ethnic makeup of an area in deciding where to live. In terms of the question that means I should disagree because I wouldn’t rather live in an area etc. but some respondents who feel the same may choose to ask "which area would I choose given the choice - ethnicly the same or different " and agree with the question.

I think the construction of the poll contributes to things like 65% think an ethnic mix is a plus but only 53% want to live in this enhanced area.

[Creative_Munster]

You all sure are quick to be outraged. This poll probably just proves that some of those six out of ten who responded that they would prefer black and asian neighbors have been bullied by the PC crowd into lying to a pollster. I really don’t see how preferring to live in a white neighborhood if you are white is inherently racist. I would tend to think that such neighborhoods are associated with less crime and a friendlier, more stable atmosphere. Also I suspect that the number of immigrants and blacks in Britain are higher than ever before. I believe that some see their nation turning into something that isn’t Britain. Are they inherintly hateful for having these fears? I don’t think so. I think it is natural for someone to want to hang onto their cultural identity.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

by Creative_Munster:
I really don’t see how preferring to live in a white neighborhood if you are white is inherently racist. I would tend to think that such neighborhoods are associated with less crime and a friendlier, more stable atmosphere.

So you’re saying that blacks and Asians are ipso facto more prone to crime, instability, and hostility? And that’s not racist? :rolleyes:

Towards the bottom of the Guardian article there was this paragraph:

One in five people believes immigrants should get less welfare provisions than British citizens, though there is a marked class difference. Just 12% of the top two socio-economic groups support less welfare for immigrants compared to 29% of the lowest two socio-economic groups. This is the group most likely to need welfare and most likely to read rightwing newspapers which have been accused of running a scaremongering campaign against asylum seekers and new immigrants.

Do I get a whiff of “use race divisions to distract the poor from the true socioeconomic roots of their plight”?

[Creative_Munster]

@EddyTeddyFreddy

So you’re saying that blacks and Asians are ipso facto more prone to crime, instability, and hostility? And that’s not racist? :rolleyes:

I’m saying that it is certainly possible that in Britain as in the US, blacks are more likely statistically to engage in violent crimes. Regardless of the reasons for this, recognizing that this is true doesn’t make one a racist. However ignoring that this could be true means that you are being willfully ignorant in an absurd attempt to appear more enlightened.

[curly_chick]

@Reuben

…because the divide between Irish and English is not that big. The two peoples generally look the same, speak the same language, have a relatively large degree of mutual respect, and have been very well known to each other since the dawn of time. All superficial stuff, but it counts for a lot. Probably more than it should, but why pretend otherwise? I have never visited Ireland, but I imagine I would feel quite at home. Why would I want to seek out other English indeed?

For someone who hasn’t even visited Ireland you seem to think you know a lot about it.
And let’s not forget, the OP was about *living * somewhere, rather than visiting.

See that bit there, where I’ve bolded what you said, Reuben?
Well, that’s the attitide, which makes me - an English person living in Ireland - cringe, when I hear it in Ireland from the mouth of a visiting English person.
Imperialisitic guff like that is not welcome here and nor should it be. If you came over here and started with that kind of nonsense, the very least you’d be is laughed at.

As yojimbo remarked earlier in this thread, there is anti-English feeling in Ireland. No question; but there’s anti-*somebody * feeling everywhere.
It’s a part of life.

[Lobsang]

If you pigeon-hole a race based on statistics, even if the statistics happen to be true, you are still being racist.

[TwistofFate]

@EddyTeddyFreddy

Do I get a whiff of “use race divisions to distract the poor from the true socioeconomic roots of their plight”?

If I could find yesterdays’ Daily Express leading article online, you’d understand just how much that is actually used.

Or just read any Richard Littlejohn article from the Sun.

you can rest assured Lord Evilheart and Rupert Murdoch never had to claim benefit, but feel duty bound to tell people who shouldn’t be allowed to.

[ruadh]

@Creative_Munster

I really don’t see how preferring to live in a white neighborhood if you are white is inherently racist. I would tend to think that such neighborhoods are associated with less crime and a friendlier, more stable atmosphere.

jjimm, do you want to invite him to Cabra or should I?