I think it’s important to have good working knowledge of “rote facts” and seemingly useless trivia. Over time and further education, these bits of knowledge here and there can be drawn upon and coalesced into a more accurate model in order to better understand newer or current issues in ways that are often unanticipated.
When it comes to US style patriotism what’s really being discussed is political education as it were, and consequently I think it’s vital to read as much as you can from original source documents, as opposed to being filtered through the lens of others, virtually always with someone who has an axe to grind - oftentimes there is the unspoken assertion that “you’re not smart enough to understand this, we’ll explain to you what they really meant.”
It’s odd that Christians are so patriotic about the U.S.A. Fatherland? They already have a Father, who art in heaven. Sounds like if Christians were to be patriotic, they’d be patriotic about heaven, not about anything here on earth.
Patiotism is an emotion concocted by cheap military dictatorships.
The only reason to fight is money or other personal gain, the rest is propaganda for underpaid soldiers.
I have only recently joined and I’m intrigued by all of the comments in this Bulletin board. I have learned over the years that students are not taught things in school that are intrinsicly thought of as patriotic. We have an obligation to our heirs to teach civic responsibility and history. If we teach those things and present them as openly as possible then we will raise patriotic children. Our history is full of misleading information. It has been written by bigots and charlatans that twist the truth. Our obligation is to protect our country, teach our children to love their country, teach history truthfully. If we do all these things, our children, our heirs will be patriotic.
In the 1930’s the Germans had all of those things didn’t they?
Respect for the swastika flag? Yes
Deference toward public officials Yes; public servants? Yes; the military? Yes
Knowledge of German history and culture? Yes
I wouldn’t pay my kids to memorize things; that seems a little silly to me. But teaching your kids stuff about their country in an age-appropriate way is just good parenting, IMHO. And if you love your country, as I do, I think you can and should lay the groundwork for later patriotism.
My two oldest boys are in Cub Scouts and I’ve served as a den leader; there’s more than a little patriotic content to Scouting. I fly flags from different periods of American history now and then, and tell them a bit about the flags when I do. We read age-appropriate bios of Washington, Lincoln, MLK, FDR and others near relevant holidays. We take them with us when we vote, and discuss current events at the dinner table. My boys know that their parents disagree with much of what the President is doing these days, but they also know of the importance of honoring and serving their country. They know that we think our country is the best, for all its faults, but that people in many other countries think the same of their own.
I actually liked this bit. Too many people seem to fall into three camps:
(a) patriotism is good, but there is only one “true” patriotism, and you must follow it unquestioningly
or
(b) any form of patriotism is bad, because of the second clause of (a).
or
(c) bb-but *what I mean * by patriotism, is different, it’s good!
The moderate, sensible “patriotism” of being a good, freethinking, informed, responsible citizen who cares about preserving, sustaining, participating in and honoring the polity wherein you dwell is a fine value set to have, and recognizing that it’s at one end of the same spectrum that includes nationalist supremacism at the extremes, does not devalue it. Accepting “Nazis were patriots” as true, does not mean you have to follow with “patriots are(would-be) Nazis”.
The comparison doesn’t work (obviously) as long as we’re agreed that it is the uniquely American trait of love of freedom, independence, and individualism, versus a statist worship of the state or dictator and collectivist uniformity.
This mischacterizes the argument. At least it does my argument. There is no claim that “German nazis were patriots, ergo patriots are nazis.”
The contention is that a call to patriotism to support the national leaders no matter what can become, as Amrose Bierce said, “Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of anyone ambitious to illuminate his name.”
For example, supporting the president and congress in the steady push to deny basic rights to detainees is pernicious nonsense in my opinion. They are personnae non grata who can be detained indefinitely without being charged and are not entitled to legal counsel or the right to be heard by an impartial arbitor. If the call to patriotism requires support for this position then I want no part of patriotism.
In WWII I originally was all for the internment of Japanese-Americans. But then I was only 19 years old. Before the war ended I had come to the conclusion, without feeling, or in my opinion being, the least bit unpatriotic, that it was a terrible mistake that set a precedent for interning anyone who was “different” in times of crisis leading to panic.
I believe that patriotism has such inflammatory possiblities that it is best abandoned. Instead, support your leaders when they act in ways that reinforce out ideals of individual freedom and oppose them when they take the easy way out in times of crisis by picking up the weapon of repression as the first thing.
There is one thing I can say about patriotism. Many are misled by it. I believe the vast majority of American Soldiers have been indoctrinated into a nationalism and impelled to buy into the most brutal of patriotisms. They are left without choice.
Since when is there a tradition of defering to servants in any situation? That changes the meaning of servant. To the contrary, they are in those positions to defer to us and to serve us! When did things get so distorted?
And the military is there for our protection. Its members are also in service. We do not live in a military state and do not defer to them unless we are in a state of emergency. We can respect them and be proud of them, but we do not defer to them.
That post creeps me out!
I’m very fond of our form of government. I do not care for its current corrupt state.
‘Patriotic’ propaganda was used and perfected by all sides during WWII.
You can only associate patriotic with good when you define patriotic as ‘on your side’. (You now have declared 6,000,000,000 people to be inferior, or seeing that you beleive in democracy you should bow to the chinese flag).
I used to think that too. I can assure you this is not the case. Have you served in the military, or does this belief come from somewhere else. My perception of the military was quite unlike what I experienced, as I was expecting all those stereotypes to come to the fore - When do I get my political indoctrination? Everybody must be brainwashed.
What I discovered was striking. The military has some of the most original and independent minded thinkers around.
I used the word deference for a reason. Deference connotates respect, esteem and consideration. It is not a synonym for obedience or slavish adoration.
As Adlai Stevenson said during the civil rights battles when people said “respect for the law” required acquiesing to segregation, “For a (the?) law to be respected it must be respectable.”
I’m willing to give new electees and appointees the benefit of any doubt in the beginning. However after a clear record to the contrary, I see no reason to respect or esteem anyone merely because they hold an office in government. You appear to think I should do so. Why?