I’m curious as to what the security-positive folks on this thread would think of my local elementary school’s habit of encouraging parents to come and eat lunch with their kids every once in a while. Most of my friends will go a couple of times a year to the cafeteria to eat with a child, and it’s considered a good thing all 'round.
So, first, some things I agree with the OP on:
-It’s really not a big deal at the primary level when a parent comes in, even unexpected. This happens to me all the freakin’ time, and as long as the parent isn’t wanting to have an immediate conversation about their child’s reading level, it’s okay. (When the parent does want immediate attention, I use my thoroughly mediocre social skills to smile at them and put them off until I can get the kids engaged in independent work, at which point I set up an appointment for further conversation).
-It’s really weird to me that teachers were challenging you if you wore a badge. Are you sure they were challenging you, not just trying to help? Maybe you looked lost. I would never challenge someone wearing an ID badge.
-It’s okay to want to help a six-year-old out when they’re transitioning to a new class. As long as you’re not dropping her off with a tearful goodbye every day, you’re no helicopter. Trust me on this one.
But I don’t agree on everything.
Seriously. There’s a small and mean part of me that hopes the other girl’s dad is a beefy drunken linebacker who would come to your house screaming at you because your fuckin’ brat punched his little angel–who would show up, that is, except for the fact that the school refused to tell him your name.
The school doesn’t want to encourage vigilantism. There’s no percentage in them doing so. If they don’t adequately punish the other kid, so freakin’ what? It’s still none of your business. It only becomes your business if the incident is repeated, at which point you can let the school know that your daughter is being bullied.
At any rate, I absofuckinlutely guarantee you that your daughter will give you the name anyway (having dealt with this situation from the other side, it’s a weird little dance I have to do, discussing a conflict between two children without using names when the parent is using the names). Why on earth would you care that the school wouldn’t tell you the name? It’s as if they refuse to Respect Mah Authoriteh or something.
Boy howdy, is that true–and it was a hard thing for me to realize, that setting up rigid and (to me) inflexible disciplinary rules was the kindest thing I could do for some of these kids, because they’d need to bang their heads against the rules a few dozen times (and watch others banging their own heads) before they would believe that the rules were fer real and would really keep them safe. I was finally convinced when I started seeing the kids from rough neighborhoods looking thrilled to come to school, when they were hiding being sick so I wouldn’t send them home, when they started giving me spontaneous hugs.
It’s completely counterintuitive to me, but a foolish consistency is sometimes the security blanket for little minds.
Edit: and goddammit, you’re not a paying customer. The first customer is your kid, not you. The second customer is society at large, not you. You’re maybe third on the list.
It turned out that both of the kids told different stories, not only different from each other, but different from minute to minute, so we really don’t know who started it. They both were sit down and told that punching, hair pulling, and neck clawing weren’t ways to solve disputes and that if it happened again, then there would be punishments. So, no harm, no foul, basically.
I’m not saying that a teacher should act like Toby the slave around me. I am saying that you are answerable to the taxpayers, to which I am one. You had said that you would have told me to “get the fuck out of my [your] school”.
It’s not your school. You are hired to work at the school, but the taxpayers collectively own it. And since my daughter is there seven hours a day under their care, being asked to be treated like a concerned parent instead of a sex offender out on work release isn’t too much to ask.
So, does a person who works at McDonald’s not have to listen to anything from a patron because they aren’t a personal servant of that one customer, but they work for ALL McDonald’s customers?
I didn’t say that I was going to go kick the guy’s ass. All I wanted to do was talk with him like an adult and try to solve the problem. I understand that some people are hotheaded and will want to fight. It happens with everything disagreement in society. Most people can handle them properly, and a few want to throw punches over a parking spot at Winn-Dixie.
That’s no reason to shield the public from ourselves and have our self-appointed masters in the public school system handle everything for us.
First, I’m a taxpayer, too–so when your desires and mine conflict, why are yours more important? Second, this comparison is absurd. If you’re arrested, is the cop obligated to let you go because you’re the customer?
That’s simply not how government employment works. If you have issues with the service you get, the proper approach is to go up the chain.
“Self-appointed masters”? Oh, get over yourself. They wouldn’t tell you the name of another student because of privacy concerns. So you had to wait six hours before your daughter told you the name. And they’re not shielding you, they’re shielding the person who doesn’t want their kid exposed to lunatic parents. [Edit: not that you’re necessarily a lunatic parent, but I don’t see where you’ve managed to convince the school of that–and even if you have, the policy is made at a federal level].
Again, if you don’t like it, go up the chain. In this case, you’re looking at Congress.
Your analogy to McDonald’s is ridiculous, but if we were to use it, you’d be the person going to McDonald’s asking for your burger to be cooked medium-rare, and throwing a snit-fit because they wouldn’t do it. You’re the customer, right?
Left Hand of Dorkness, I came back in here to point out that we’re taxpayers too. We employ ourselves, with the exact same level of “ownership” of the institution that the parents have. In fact with the level of unemployment and families on benefits round here, I imagine at any given time I’m probably paying as much tax as the parents of every kid in my classroom put together… and (I’d never thought of this before) thereby paying their benefits too. So if them paying my salary makes me their servant, does that mean that because I pay theirs I can order them around about how they raise their kids? Oh my, they can just be glad term ended today before I realised that! (See how ridiculous this argument is?)
I was just griping the other day about how much work we had to put into becoming teachers, the years of study before we got our license, but these yahoos got to become parents with no license at all. I have an idea for the renewal of NCLB, oh yes I do.
I agree that the whole “I’m a paying customer” argument simply doesn’t go very far. It certainly doesn’t give me any special privileges with the county tax assessor’s office, state and local police personnel, the road crew filling a pothole in front of my house, or any other employee on the public payroll. Sure, I have a voice. I have a voice at my local school board too, even if I don’t have a kid that goes there. But your voice is no more important than the thousands of other taxpayer voices, and concerns and subsequent policies are generally weighed and made in the collective. So yeah, get past this whole “I’m a paying customer” routine; it just makes you sound like an ignorant entitled brat.
As another parent and paying customer, I’m more than willing, neigh, GLAD, that I and anyone else in the hallways of my kid’s school are stopped multiple times and asked questions. It doesn’t bother me in the least, because I know exactly the chain of events that led to this state of affairs, and know the wonderful teachers and administrators who are in such an unwinnable situation have no choice but to do that for various reasons, as unfortunate as it is. As several people have mentioned upthread, it only takes one fucking huge catastrophic incident to send whole districts into a tizzy and change policies to make things safer. The policies don’t always seem effective, sometimes they’re misguided, but I can’t fault them for trying. (although I may roll my eyes a time or two if I’m inconvenienced, I can’t see getting all hot-headed at the staff about it)
For those who made comments that say that your school is nothing like that with the security measures, I think that’s great; I say enjoy it. And for the record, I’m all for parents visiting, having lunch with their kids, visiting classrooms, being involved. All that’s great, and I don’t think there is one person here seriously arguing otherwise. But it must be acknowledged that there have been incidents and problems in the past that make some schools more cautious.
My spouse and I, in spite of being longtime upstanding members of the community, one of us a career teacher, had to do the “vetting” process at our local Catholic school in order to volunteer there; all volunteers had to do this no matter what capacity. Of course this was a response to the priest abuse scandal. I understand completely. Who says it couldn’t happen at a public school? Sure the odds are remote, and all the security seems way overboard… until it happens to your kid. Then I have a feeling those same parents would be screaming bloody murder about why wasn’t something more done to prevent it?
Both of my parents were schoolteachers, so it is deeply ingrained in me to respect the teaching profession, to be strongly in favor of public education, and to take the side of teachers in most controversies about them. I always thought that all the talk about how American public school teachers are stupid and incompetent was just right-wing propaganda from the people who would like to be able to get all the rich and middle class kids into private schools, so they can be a source of profit, cut state education funding (so they can cut taxes) and let the poorer kids go to hell.
But, wow, the self-righteousness, inflexibility and blinkered attitudes being shown in this thread by people who are, apparently, teachers, has, frankly, caused me to lose a lot of respect for the profession. I had heard about this sort of police-state mentality surrounding some American schools, but I always assumed it was something imposed by petty minded bureaucrats with no real interest in educating kids or maintaining good relations with their community, but only in covering their asses against the remotest possibility of anything ever going wrong (of course, things will still go wrong, they just want to be sure they won’t be blamed). I had assumed most teachers were as unhappy with all this draconian legalism as the parents and kids must be. But apparently not. And apparently it is considered the norm that most teachers not be competent enough to get their class to learn anything for the rest of the day after such a horrible disruption as a parent showing up at the classroom for a moment to drop their kid off before lessons start.
Seriously guys, you are not doing the cause of the teaching profession any good by defending this crap.
Perhaps I should add that I have two daughters in the American Public school system, but thankfully we live in one of the districts that (although not especially wealthy or crime free, and quite racially mixed) practices a somewhat more relaxed attitude. Yeah, a parent is expected to sign in at the office and wear a badge, but it is all done in a very relaxed way, and no one hassles you. I (a male, even) once stayed in my daughter’s 2nd grade classroom for half an hour or so just to observe a lesson (and my wife did similarly on other occasions). The school welcomed this involvement, and I saw no indication that the teacher found it at all burdensome. And guess what? The school district is not plagued with abductions or child molestation. I am sure that, once in a blue moon, such tragedies will happen. I would bet they happen at least as often in (or perhaps, rather, just outside) schools that lock themselves down like jails and automatically treat all parents as potential criminals.
As I understand it, though I have not verified it, all public Florida schools who have volunteers on campus are required to have the volunteers fill out the quick level 1 background check form with about the same amount of information you give to get a store card (Best Buy, Macy*s, BN Visa). This also holds true for a lot of the school trip volunteers - driving or overnight volunteers or other types of leaders (scouts, soccer) may have to do more.
My school requires volunteers to go through the quick level 1 background check - verifies if you have any warrants out or an arrest record. Don’t know what they do if you do have a record or problem on file.
Parents who are coming in for a planned meeting, or dropping in during lunch, or coming by for a class party or any other “non-academic” time, or for library time can come to the office without going through a background check, and pick up a visitor’s pass that indicates their destination. On days when there are special programs or events during school time, there are extra staff on hand to get the crush of parents in and out and around the school without passes or background checks.
At my school, we are welcome to visit when it doesn’t disturb the academic day (which I think the time the OP was barging in on unreasonably is part of) and flow; specials time (which is electives like art or PE), library time, lunch time, snack/parties, events. No appointment, no background check, unless it’s a big event you get a visitor pass at the front desk.
We are welcome to visit for meetings - no background check, but you get a visitor pass.
We are welcome to plan out with teachers for volunteer opportunities - classroom, specials, lunch, library, office, whatever.
But, like I said, some schools are forbidding you volunteering in your own child’s classroom (at least one is, possibly more) - I’m glad mine has not.
800 students + 1600+ parents - that’s a lot of people to keep track of - the first week of school is always madness. Once the routines are settled into, the follow on weeks are a bit calmer, though we still get the occasional moving-traffic drop offs and jawalking parentsl.
The teachers in your daughter’s school have no way of knowing that you are not a threat. They are not authorities on the private lives of the parents of their students. Sex offenders are often parents too. Teachers don’t know which of their students have parents who are sex offenders. We can’t keep informed on the latest rulings on custody battles. Our days are filled with so many other responsibilities to the students.
You were told that it was unnecessary for you to accompany your daughter on her class change. After all, she is gifted. You could have explained to her that the school has a lot of faith in her ability to handle the change over and that you will make an appointment to meet her new teacher.
Yes. An appointment. What the hell is wrong with you parents that you can’t arrange ahead of time to meet with the teacher? You do it with all other professionals. Why not teachers? Doesn’t it make sense to meet with a teacher when there aren’t 25 children in the room that he or she is responsible for?
That is the way that it almost always turns out. There is no way for an administrator to judge which child is telling the truth. And that’s why usually both children are punished if they both hit each other. It’s not that unusual for six year olds to get into a little fisty-cuffs without really meaning to. I think that’s why they were just warned.
jt, if I were you, I would be very, very grateful that my little girl was in a school where she is so well protected from outsiders and disruptions. But it is the outsiders – parents are outsiders unless they have an appointment – that concern me most.
People can go crazy out there. One of the librarians that I taught with was robbed at gunpoint before school started. Parents have attacked teachers. Long ago I was attacked by a trespasser (with six others). I was in the emergency room for seven hours and the hospital for three days. I was out of school for two weeks.
Strangely enough, one of the trespassers became one of my students another year at another school.
Harmful people don’t always look like you might think they would. You can’t tell just by looking whether someone is a safe person or not. Be terribly glad that four people were looking out for your child’s welfare in the hallway that day!
And of course teachers are going to ask with a bit of a sneer. We have to keep up our reputations for being bad asses or chaos would reign.
I retired 20 years ago and still miss the kids.
I’ve always double-blinked at this “We pay taxes, too!” argument from government employees. Your whole paycheck comes from taxes. So, fifteen or thirty five percent is taken out to pay taxes. You still have the other 85 to 65 percent that you are paid from taxpayer funds. My salary is zero percent from tax payer funds. You work for the government and the government derives its power from the people. The people being people like me.
And if everyone behaved as you did?
The president and our armed forces are also tax payer funded. Are you going to speak to a four-starred general in that way?
Unhappily, JT you behaved like a twit/jerk.
If I were a stockholder of the corporation that employs you would I have the right to demand you to attend to my needs? No. The immediate employer is the boss.
Government employees have a hierarchy that directs their job and also that has a means to address complaints, root it out and use it. Your input into governemnt decisions is garnered at the voting stage, the PTA meeting stage, the School Board Meeting stage. You do not have purview to direct state/county/city government employees on the ground.
I’m still a bit bothered about the whole"need to help my daughter move to her new classroom" thing. I presume that testing for the gifted program is done at regularly scheduled intervals, not at someone’s whim, so it is likely that other children were going to be moving rooms at the same time…though why they would start a program in the middle of the year escapes me. I doubt that the original teacher was unaware that your daughter was moving to a new classroom, possibly along with one or two of her classmates. I’m sure the teacher had a plan for how this was to happen, and that she wouldn’t just look up and see your daughter, say “What are you doing here? Grab your stuff and get out and go to room 312 and never darken our door again”. They may have even had a whole plan in place for a certain time of the day that this would happen, and you showing up early to shift your child may not have fit the plan.
I do think it’s odd that they would not have had an orientation program for parents of kids joining the gifted program, where you meet the teacher and find out what enrichment activities are offered…I know I went to one for my daughter, but I have no idea if my parents went to one for me.
Sometimes kids, especially little ones, miss a lot of the information teachers tell them. It’s possible they had explained to your daughter how the transition would take place (I’m assuming this is an immersion, full-day, separate gifted class, and not just a two periods out of the day thingy) and she just didn’t get it. I know that happened with my kids several times…they only heard half the instructions, or misunderstood, and I showed up at school for things or with things that didn’t exist or weren’t needed…the whole elf costume incident of 1993 stands clearly in my mind…so it is possible in her nervousness, your daughter missed how the changeover was going to happen. I know the fight sort of took precedence, but did your daughter ever say how many of her classmates changed classes with her,and how they got their stuff to the new room?