[RANT]My two best friends are, put bluntly, fuckups

I guess I’m posting this at risk of sounding like a completely arrogant shit, which I may very well be.

Anyway, two childhood, life-long friends are basically losers. I’ve spent most of my life making endless excuses for them, but maybe it’s time I admit this to myself. They’ve both had numerous opportunities to get further in life that they’ve squandered largely through incompetence, lack of discipline, and laziness, and I am beginning to realize that deep down, neither of them want to see me succeed. I am convinced that it would bring them a form of satisfaction if I were to crash and burn. I wouldn’t be surprised if neither of them would admit to this or even realize it though.
Again, this may sound arrogant, but objectively speaking there is a large gap in terms of achievement between them and me. Some of it was due to advantages I had that they didn’t, but much of it I earned as well. But I’ve been struggling lately and coming to realize that they would prefer that I struggle and fail more than succeed. Whenever I experience progress, I can feel their resentment, and whatever misstep I take, their relief. Hell, I underplay or simply omit any achievements to spare their feelings.

But they’re not bad dudes by any stretch. I can understand where the resentment might come from, but I don’t know if I should have best friends that want me to fail. Not that I’m going to cut them out of my life or anything but this does put me in a sort of awkward position.

That was a weird little rant, thanks for reading!

My advice would to be to get more better friends. It is hard to succeed when your best friends are telling you that not succeeding is ok.

If they are as good as you think you can hang out with them but they may not be the most reliable source for you to judge your lifes successes on…
ETA: It sounds like you already know this though.

Nice of you to support your friend.

Misery loves company.

There is a total dosconnect in your OP btween you thinking your friends are losers, and you thinking your friends want you to fail for … why?

What you seem to be saying is, “I’m better than my friends, and they must resent me for it.”

This says a whole lot more about you than it does about them.

Not to pile on, Grey area, but this. Since you didn’t give any specific examples of their words or behaviors, I can only form an impression from what you’ve said and based on that it sounds like you might be projecting / putting words in their mouths. Also, is it possible that you (unconsciously) lord your success over them?

Oh baloney.

You have no idea of which way this swings yet. There plenty of succesful people who think anybody less successful than them is a fuckup. There are ALSO plenty of actual fuckups who resent anyone who manages to pass the low bar of not being a royal fuck up, much less being even moderately successful.

Lets wait for some actual examples of their fuckupedness before you pass judgement.

Yup. Sounds like OPs friends are suffering from crab bucket mentality to me:
“The analogy in human behavior is sometimes claimed to be that members of a group will attempt to “pull down” (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy, conspiracy or competitive feelings”

I am going to give Grey Area a pass on this. I can relate. I have had, in the past some friends who have maybe had a few disadvantages in life (broken homes, toxic parents) but have had opportunities to succeed and they generally sabotaged themselves. (Two different friend at different times have had the opportunity to go back to school, fully funded with stipends for daycare for their children etc and completely garbaged it…'ve been the single parent and I know it is hard but they had it financially easy compared to most… ) I helped out with child care I bought these women groceries, I paid one of them for babysitting my child while I babysat hers for free.

They always screwed up their chances right on the brim of success.

I hit a point with both of these women where I just couldn’t do it any more. One was particularly hard, she was my cousin and we had been through a lot together, but after giving her and lending her money, help, assistance etc she and my at the time boyfriend moved intogether and basically robbed me, and mocked me. I have written her off and exchanged exactly 28 words with her in the last 16 years.
(The twenty-eight words were “Thank you.” on one occasion and another 26 word note to let her know that another relative of ours was badly hurt in a car accident and that I missed the fun we had as children.)

The second woman was basically a replacement for my cousin, and things were fine when I was a struggling single parent but when I started working again, got a stable partner in my life, and actually wanted some sympathy and help from her (I had my wrist broken at work, we went out the night it happened and the whole night was all about her problems…she barely acknowledged my injury, she said “well that’s what working at a place like you do will get you.”

I was done. I had someone tell me that some of my friends were pretty trashy and I had always defended them. Finally I just said “enough.”

Part of me really misses these women. One was the closest someone could be to being a sister, the other was my companion through my 20s and 30s. The other part realizes that while I was not “better” than them, I really didn’t need to have self destructive people around me, people who would never help me the way I helped them (and I don’t just mean financial.)

I chose to cut off contact and have tried to stay away from needly people since. I have one friend who on the surface seems like another in my list of “strays”, but although she is on disability and has various ailments she still manages to pay her way in the world, own a condo, not have her kids in care, and manage her life. Sure she needs to vent sometimes about her ex husband or her controlling mother but it is a completely diffeerent relationship. I even asked my husband and my mother if my new friend was like my cousin or the other friend. Only after I got a resounding NO did I get closer to the new woman.

So… it may not be a popular opinion but that is mine. I understand where the OP is coming from

but I still believe it’s hard to fly like an eagle if you’re stuck chained to a couple of turkeys.

True, but being a “fuckup” is a relative thing. I mean, I have a close friend who’s always been something of a minor fuckup, in the sense of he never really lives up to his potential, and tends toward following the path of least resistance. He’s a very, very intelligent and creative guy, but hasn’t ever really wanted to apply himself. He’s always held down a job, and did a successful stint in the Army, but never really excelled.

Then there’s the guy who me and this friend knew from middle school, who delivered us a pizza when we were about 25-26 after we were out of college for a few years. Who’s the fuckup there?

You guys, for eating pizza for dinner. :stuck_out_tongue:

Maybe it was a really good pizza.

I guess some people want specific examples of resentment from my friends and how they’re fuckups. I was intentionally keeping it vague since if not, I would have to provide context which could sound like I’m further shittalking my friends (though I already called them fuckups) while tooting my own own horn. But because some people are skeptical, I’ll try provide some context.

Why I called my friends “fuckups”
Friend 1 was kicked out a reputable college because what was essentially fraud in his application. It was his mom’s idea, and that’s probably the main reason I’ve cut him a lot of slack in term of that, but in the end, he knew what was up and he was the one benefiting from the fraud. To his credit he’s owned up to it. After a few in years in the army, he started attending a for-profit college that is teetering on bankruptcy, his tuition and living costs payed for by educational funding for vets.

Friend 2 dropped out of a not-particularly-reputable school after the dept of his major closed its doors. He joined the Navy, and quit two weeks into basic training. For half a decade after that he lived with his wealthy parents, not working and not really looking for work. Then, by the virtue of his charm and perhaps his background, he got married. Now he is working at an office job that his in-laws set up for him.

So I suppose the next question might be “well what have you done that’s so great?” Well, I’m not going to pretend I’m the president of the universe or something, but objectively speaking, I have done more to further my career prospects than my two friends. I graduated from college, worked an office job for a bit, then got accepted to a first-tier law school from which I very recently graduated. But as I mentioned, I am “struggling” in that I am not employed mostly due to my poor academic performance in law school and also the legal job market somewhat. As people are eager to point out, the job market for lawyers has not been great, and I knew that coming into law school and I took the risk. And I don’t blame anyone else for where I am right now.

Their “resentment”
So generally, when I tell them about an achievement, progress, etc. they do not respond positively. At best, a very forced “good for you I guess” or more often they’ll change the subject. Never congratulations. So as mentioned earlier, I mostly don’t tell them this stuff any more.
Of course some of you will assume it’s because I am bragging and they’ve had enough of that shit or something along those lines, and to be honest I don’t have the writing skills necessary to better describe the nuisances of these interactions to show that is not the case. So if you want to assume they react that way because I’m a braggart, so be it.

If I fuck up, or something bad happens, their reaction tends to be more positive. Of course they’re not going to expressly say that they’re glad bad things happen to me, but many times their tone betrays them. At best, their reaction is along the lines of “sucks for you I guess,” or “hey at least you’re in law school.”
In one memorable instance, when I told Friend 2 that my SO of two years broke up with me, his initial response was laughter and a sort of gleeful and condescending joke. When I called him out, he caught himself. Friend 1 was more sympathetic and I was and am grateful. But if in terms of academic/career setbacks, Friend 1’s reaction is usually “at least you’re in law school.” I can’t turn to these guys when I’m having a hard time (career-wise especially) because they offer no support. But I guess that’s not the worst thing in the world and I understand where they’re coming from.

Anyway, if you still think I’m an arrogant shitbag who thinks he’s better than his friends, then I don’t think I can really convince you otherwise. But even if you think I’m a shitbag, my point still stands that my friends don’t want me to see me succeed.

This turned out less coherent than I hoped. Oh well.

Ok, so…
We have one guy who perpetrated some fraud, did a hitch in the Army, and is now struggling while attending a for-profit college on GI-Bill benefits.

We have another guy who was a fuckup earlier on, but is now working at a good job.

Then we have a guy who went to college, and then went to a law school, and apparently botched that badly, and now can’t get a job, because of his shitty grades and is bitter about the whole thing, and yet talks shit about achievement and fuck-up-itude to his friends.

Are we surprised when the first to glory in the third guys’ misfortune? Hardly. I’d be wishing for him to fail as well.

I would say:

  1. It’s uncourteous of you to highlight the fact that your friends are “fuckups.” There’s nothing wrong with being a fuckup. Some people hit their stride later in life. When you appear to be snarking on these guys because they haven’t kept up with you, then you’re going to seem like a snob. And no one likes a snob.

  2. OTOH, it’s perfectly legit to complain that your friends are unsupportive. Some people definitely take delight in others’ problems and put people down when they succeed. It’s common.

Putting points 1 & 2 together: I would just drop the whole fuck-up narrative and focus on point 2. For example: “I have a couple friends. They’ve kind of taken the slow-to-average career track, and that’s fine with me. But I’ve tried to take the fast track, and it’s driving a wedge between us…” (and continue on about their jibes and lack of support).

As for whether you ought to dump the friends over point 2: There’s a convention with some guys that it’s okay to dog each other about every little screw-up (in the name of milking things for comedy) and not be particularly supportive when support is called for (it’s considered too touchy-feely). So it’s not considered a crime for guys to act this way.

But when the “accomplishment gap” gets too wide, you may want to dump these guys. You get tired of hiding your accomplishments from your friends just because you know they’re going to take it negatively and give you a ration of shit about it.

Well that’s one way of looking at it. Actually kind of an inaccurate way.

One, I don’t “talk shit about achievement and fuck-up-itude to [my] friends.” I agree, if I mouthed off to them about how awesome I am and shitty they are because I’m not doing so well and I feel insecure, I think they would they’d be completely justified in wanting to see me fail. But I never did that. I don’t “talk shit” by criticizing them or lecturing them or whatever. To be honest I’ve been tempted to in the past. But like you suggest, who am I do to that when I can’t get my own shit straight?

On that point, though I didn’t do great academically, it’s not like my career is over before it began. I still have opportunities. And I’m not bitter at all. Not about my career at least. Maybe a bit disappointed in myself but I’m not sure who or what I’d be bitter towards.

Basically, I am not having an easy time of it, and I cannot look to my friends for support. I think I have been there in their times of need, and they’re not here for mine. There weren’t here for my times of success(?) as well, which isn’t as big of a deal. I chalk it up to the disparity of “achievement” between them and me, maybe wrongly so.

Anyway, even with your interpretation bump (where I’m a fuckface and my friends are justified in wanting me to fail), you agree that they want me to fail. Which still sucks for me, even though I’m a fuckface.

You’re absolutely right on all points. It was a dick move on my part to call them fuckups and it also muddled the point of the rant.

I think I was lashing out at them (not directly to them, which would truly be shitty, but on the message board) probably because of my own insecurities. Yeah maybe they’re a bit butthurt about some of my accomplishments, but that doesn’t make them losers.

At the end of the day, I probably should just worry about my own shit.

And maybe find some other friends who can be more supportive.

I have lots of friends. No one friend does everything for me. Some friends are great at one thing, some friends are great at another. So when I make new friends, I note what they’re good or bad at, and focus on interacting with them mostly about the stuff they’re good at.

It’s smart to be honest about your friends’ limitations. Just work on having a wider circle of friends so that you have other people available to you who are stronger in those areas where your current friends are weak.

I think it’s a grievous error to ever believe, for even one second, that you know whether another soul is, ‘living up to their potential’. You may know a lot of their story, heard their past, lived through some of it with them even. It’s a big mistake, I think, to feel you ‘know’ what they could have attained. We never really know another person’s life struggles, the things they face in their darkest moments, the demons that haunt or the storms that rage within them.

Haven’t lived up to their potential is flat out a judgement, of something you can not possibly know about another soul. Not cool, if these are your friends.

If they aren’t supportive when you need them to be, that’s a fair complaint and I fully support you stepping back to make room in your life for friends who will be their for you. But don’t judge others by what you perceive to be their potential.