Actually, hip-hop is currently the number one selling music genre in the country and the world. As far as sales, revenue, and global listeners this music is most definitely top dog.
DaLovin’ Dj
Sure enough, it’s popular. So is McDonalds. 
What’s wrong with creating music electronically? You can get any idiot to learn to play guitar; the real skill is telling him what to play. Hendrix wasn’t great because he was skilled with his instrument, he was great because he knew what to do with sound. Likewise, someone using samples or electronics to create music is just as skilled as someone who uses an acoustic instrument to do so.
I’d rather hear DJ Shadow’s stunning use of samples on Entroducing than sit through 30 seconds of the shit made by John Mayer (supposedly a very talented guitarist).
Rap groups? You mean like D12, De La Soul, The Beastie Boys, The Roots, Outkast, Public Enemy or NWA? And you’re telling me there are no rap groups? Interestingly, each of these groups are significant not only because they are groups, but in complete opposition to what you suggest, each group contains one or more members who significantly contribute to the band instrumental sound.
Meanwhile, if we take another genre, say… 40’s pop, you’ll find that there’s a heap of solo artists who didn’t play instruments and didn’t even write their own songs. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin… oh, them? They’re legends, aren’t they?
Oh, wow, it takes so much talent to play a Ramones song, doesn’t it? Hell, I bet an artist like Kanye West who writes for himself (as say, Lennon did), others (as Bacharach/David did), produces (as Brian Eno did) and performs feels really bummed that he never learnt how to play A, D and E on the guitar to show he was as talented as Joey Ramone.
(Note: I like the Ramones. But they’re musical brilliance is not their musicianship.)
And what about R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe? He can’t play any instruments. I suppose you would think Stipe doesn’t even have the musical talent of somebody’s 5 year old, who can play ‘Mary Had A Little Lamb’ on the piano.
Yep. Scott Stapp (of Creed) does all that. And he still blows. So tell me, why are those talents so important?
Hail Ants, do you comment on all subjects from a completely ignorant stance, or is it just music where you try to act like an expert on something you obviously have no idea about?
Not based on tone? I can play “Get Ur Freak On” on guitar! You can buy hip hop songbooks with the melody transcribed for piano! And isn’t it weird that when Jay-Z wanted to do an MTV Unplugged performance, he got in Philly rap group the Roots to play his songs on REAL INSTRUMENTS? How come both times I’ve seen the Black Eyed Peas play, they had a band that played their songs on REAL INSTRUMENTS? How come when I saw the Roots play, they not only played their songs, they played pop hits like Hot in Herre and Frontin’ on REAL INSTRUMENTS? If there is no tone, then how come I’ve heard hip hop played by guitar-bass-drum combos? How come Luka Bloom was able to do a folk cover of an LL Cool J song?
Chronos, I’m suspecting you haven’t heard a lot of experimental music. But do me a favour. Read up on some aleotoric music, some found sound compositions, some glitchtronica music, and then try and tell me that hip hop isn’t music. Because if you can’t cope with the idea that hip hop is music, then your head will explode when you’re confronted with compositions that truly sit on the boundary between music and not music. Hip hop is obviously music. It has melody, it has rhythm. I’m sure you can cope with the idea that this is a form of music that emphasises rhythm rather than melody.
I’m wondering what sort of thing you are calling “folk rap.”
Cite please?
Ya know, “bands” like the Backstreet Boys" sold a lot of product too, but that don’t make 'em any good. The avarage music consumers are dumbasses, who base their listening habits on what the media sells them, what their friends think is cool, and how “cute” the guys in the band are. You want a cite? OK…Creed, Eminem, Blink182, Brittney, N’sync, Nickleback, that god awful “Hey Ya” song…I could go on all day. Would Jet be as popular with their *recycled Iggy Pop riffs if they looked like Motorhead? I don’t think so.
*not that I have anything against recycled Iggy Pop riffs.
Wait, how did we get on the topic of hip-hop? I thought we were talking about rap. Are the two terms now considered synonymous? What do folks now call the stuff which was called hip-hop when I was in college? And for that matter, how did electronica get into the discussion? I’m certain that electronica isn’t rap.
And I’ve heard Irish folk compositions which consisted of, essentially, rhyming poetry spoken rhythmically without a melody. The style is completely different from urban rap, but the form is, so far as I can tell, identical.
The question of instrumental accompiament, incidentally, is a strawman. “Singing without instrumental accompiament” isn’t “rap”, it’s “a capella”.
Hip-hop is a culture. Hip-hop music is one aspect of that culture. “Rap” is synonymous with hip-hop music.
It’s a young stupid thing, that’s for sure, but it’s definately not exclusively male.
I love it when someone invokes race in a rap discussion.
A few years ago, this incredibly vacuous blonde girl that I worked with asked me if I liked Tupack. I told her “I don’t listen to that shit”, at which point she politely informed me that I was a racist. So I asked her if she ever listened to Muddy Waters, Johnny Lee Hooker, Cab Callaway or Gatemouth Brown.
She said “Um no?”
So I said “I wouldn’t be talking then, ya fuckin racist.”
Why do you get to define “music”?
Well, because he (or she) made it quite clear in his (or her) original post that the definition offered was a definition of music to him (or her). **Chronos ** gets to define music because ultimately, what constitutes “music” is an utterly subjective question. Look, let’s say I have a pot that’s fallen on the floor face down. When the top is struck, it sounds the note B-flat. An angry monkey enters the room, holding a stick. After wreaking some havoc of other kinds, it hits the pot three times with the stick. Has the monkey made music? There was pitch and rhythm. Still, most of us would agree that no music has been made. Meanwhile, forty miles away, the New York Philharmonic plays Mozart. This is clearly music.
Somewhere between the monkey and the Mozart, an arrangment of sounds becomes music. But to try to force an objective definition of when is just ridiculous. To some, rap falls on side of the line; to others, it falls on the other side of the line. Why is this such a bad thing? Why does Chronos saying that he (or she) doesn’t think of rap as music offend you so much?
To me, the term “music” is a lot like the term “literature.” Does Stephen King qualify as literature? John Milton? The instruction manual for my DVD player? In the end, we have to develop our own definitions for these things. For me, some rap falls within the spectrum of what I’d call music and some does not; virtually no electronic “music” does. I have my reasons, because I have my own definition of music, no more or less valid that any of yours. Why is this a source of such anger for some of you? I’m not going to steal your CDs and burn them, nor am I going to laugh at you or call you names; I just probably won’t listen to the same radio stations as you do. So what?
Well, I apologize for going all “Pitty” on the OP. I forgot where I was.
I also will agree that rap is music. Just not my taste in music.
My kid writes this stuff. My only hope is that the same sucker that bought it from everyone else will buy it from my kid and make him rich.
Taking my old fogey butt out of this conversation now. I have bigger musical fish to fry.
Because (and admitedly Chronos is probably the exception to the rule here) most people say it insultingly. It would be like telling a nascar fan that Dale Earnhardt wasn’t a real driver, or a basketball fall that Michael Jordon isn’t a real player.
What kind of music do you listen to? I’m sure whatever it is I could easily say “that’s not music” and support my argument just as well as anyone saying rap isn’t music could support theirs. How would you feel about that?
What if I told a proud stepfather that his kids weren’t really his kids? Of course I could tapdance around the definition of “father” and try to support my argument, but most people would consider me in the wrong and incredibly rude at the same time.
I love Beethoven. I love Billie Holliday and Led Zeppellin and Bob Marley. I love Johnny Cash and Ledbelly and The Ramones. I love Hank Williams Sr. and Men At Work and Bad Religion and a thousand other musicians that aren’t rap. But rap is the music I grew up with and one of the few artforms that I’m compassionate about and have truly loved for most of my life. When someone says it isn’t really music, I have to admit, it stings.
Popularity != versatility. If we are to define versatility as ‘appealing (or not offensive) to the broadest possible range of tastes’ (can you suggest a better definition of the word?), then sheer number of interested fans doesn’t make a difference.
Huh?! You’re saying what, that Hendrix was a skilled composer but he could have handed his sheet music to any competant guitar player and gotten the same results?! Are you kidding?!
Hendrix was skilled with his instrument. Just as rap artists are skilled with their voices. I just feel that a guitar can be a far more complex and musical sound-making-device than the human voice.
Sigh. I said there are fewer groups, not none. In fact, I kind of like The Beastie Boys because they combine a hard rock edge with rap.
Geez, you’re over-generalizing a tad. No, of course I wouldn’t say that.
Look, the key issue for me is this: Music, first and foremost, is sound. A form of emotional sound (whatever that may mean). It isn’t storytelling, it isn’t a medium for social change, and it isn’t just background noise for dancing & scoring with chicks. And rap, more often than not, is those things.
Consequently I like ‘studio’ bands. Groups which put as much or more work into their music as their lyrics, such as Zepplin, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Metallica, Def Leppard, Ozzy, STP, Nirvana, Creed :D, Soundgarden, Evanescene etc.
I’m going to go ahead and call you on that, then.
That’s a pretty good list. Go for it.
In the eyes of this music history major:
Rap/R&B music is musique concréte combined with sprechstimme. Of course, there is some other stuff in there, but to me, this is what it all would boil down to if I had to “analyse” a “piece” of rap music.
I’m acting as though the terms hip hop (music) and rap are interchangable, because for the purposes of this conversation, they are. Yes, hip hop is a culture (when I’m saying hip hop in this thread it’s shorthand for hip hop music) and rap is the form that most hip hop takes.
Unless you’re trying to engage in a “the cool stuff I like is hip hop and the bad stuff that’s commercial is rap,” argument I don’t see any reason to quibble about the terms. What, exactly, do you see as the difference?
Hail Ants criticised rap on the basis that it is (at times) created electronically.
The only time I mentioned musical accompaniment in responding to your comments was when I told you that hip hop can be played on acoustic instruments. This is important because it counters your claim that hip hop is not melodic - if you can play it on a guitar, there’s a melody there.
I note that you consider music based primarily or solely on rhythm to not be music. What do you make of percussive drumming? Aboriginal music based on rhythmic instruments? And tell me about Queen’s “We Will Rock You”. It starts with an unaccompanied drum beat (not music by your definition). Does this mean that “We Will Rock You” is not music until the chant begins, or since that chant is rhythmic rather than melodic, until the guitars kick in? If there is a point where “We Will Rock You” becomes music, what was it before it was music? Once you’ve answered this, consider similar compositions, such as “Sympathy For The Devil”.
I define movies as moving coloured pictures with sound. Consequently, all those black and white things aren’t movies. All those silent things aren’t movies.
My point being, if a definition is stupid and wrong, it’s stupid and wrong. Chronos’ definition is stupid and wrong, just like my definition of movies.
The monkey has no artistic motivation. Therefore, he’s not making music. Music needs purpose behind the sound.
Because it’s ignorant. This board is a board for fighting ignorance.
This is a ridiculous analogy. Music is like the term “writing.” There is no implication of quality. Just as Stephen King, John Milton and the instruction manual for your DVD player are writing, my playing of a kazoo, 50 Cent rapping, and Beethoven composing are all music.
However, if you are correct and describing something as ‘music’ is like describing something as ‘literature,’ then what is the sonic equivalent of describing something as writing? It cannot be ‘sound’; that is too broad. We need to be able to differentiate between Eminem and a waterfall. Why destroy a perfectly useful word because you want to play ignorant snob games?
Words are about communication. If people have an understanding of the word “music,” you can’t claim it means something else just because you want to develop your own definition. People obviously understand hip hop to be music. It is sold in music stores. You can buy it on iTunes. It’s protected as music by copyright. Saying “I like Eminem’s music” when referring to his new album makes sense, because we recognise Eminem’s output as music. Similarly, saying “I like Spielberg’s dancing” when referring to ET doesn’t make sense, because we know ET isn’t a dance.
If I make a midi of a Beethoven symphony, how is that not music? It mightn’t be good music, but it’s still music.
Your definition is less valid, because it isn’t a good means of communication.
I’ve heard any number of guitar players play Hendrix. Sure, Hendrix was a skilled player, but if he was just a skilled player, he would just have been Eddie Van Halen or someone equally boring. Hendrix was brilliant because of what he did with sound.
On what basis do you say that?
You said there are “rarely” rap groups. I showed you that you were completely wrong. Rap groups are not rare. And if you want to revise that to mean “fewer,” I ask you: fewer than what? Are we saying rap has fewer groups than jazz, pop, rock, classical, folk, swing?
I’m not sure what you seek to prove by saying there are fewer rap groups, anyway. Why is a group inherently better? Frank Sinatra is very well respected, as were his contemporaries. They weren’t in bands. What is it that makes a group of people more skilled than a solo performer?
But wait! You criticised rap because the talent “cannot compare to being a talented guitar, keyboard, or even drum player.” Why is Michael Stipe, who can’t play any instruments, talented, but a rapper isn’t?
Yep. That’s rap.
Do you know what a ballad is?
Don’t be ridiculous. Every art form has always included artists seeking to respond to (and often change) their environment. Music is filled with people trying to use it as a medium for social change. Do you know who Joni Mitchell is?
Well, that counts a whole lot of rock n roll out. Do you know who Elvis is?
(Actually, I’m also now wondering what it is that dancers dance to. If you go to the ballet, what are the ballet dancers dancing to? It can’t be music, because music isn’t background noise for dancing. In fact, throughout history, music and dancing (and probably sex) have been closely related. Aboriginal corroborees. 19th Century balls. Hoedowns. Barn Dances. Jigs.)
Let me guess. You don’t actually listen to rap. You don’t know a whole lot about it. Because describing rap as you did is like describing rock n roll as a form of music about sex made by long haired guys in tight pants who play endless guitar solos.
Ahh. Tell me, is your problem with rap that it often lacks loud guitar?
I’m getting the impressions that, given your restrictions, you would define music as “something to put on while you stand in your bedroom in front of a mirror and strum a tennis racket.”
I’d say it’s more like telling someone that Bill the over the road truck driver wasn’t a real nascar driver.
Look… Britney spears blows. I hate her music. But it’s still music.
Ditto for Micheal the Molester Jackson, his sister Janet, George Michael and Prince.
Ok? Ditto for Opera and Caribbean music. My point is, I’m not telling you it’s not music because I think it sucks (which I do).
If I screamed the preamble to the constitution at the top of my lungs, with audio of two handshaking modems playing at 115 decibels in the background, would you defend that as a legitimate form of music?
Yes. I would. I’d also call it complete shit, but music doesn’t have to be good. You’d be making truly terrible music.
So, gex gex, it seems like your only definition of music is ‘sound with purpose.’ The monkey in the above definition wasn’t making music, but if I were the one wreaking havoc and banging on a pot, it would be?
Where exactly do you draw the line between music and sound? I don’t accept your definition any more than you accept Chronos’s.
Not an appeal to authority, but rather the opinion of a person with a degree in music I would say that rapping over a background with a beat and/or melody and/or harmonization and/or sampling of any of those concepts DOES fit the definiton of music. Especially when the rhythm of the rapping is timed to coincide with the rhythyms of the “background music.” It would be a mistake to dissect the different parts of a rap song (calling part of it music and part of it not music)when it is presented to the listener as a singular work. However I would not suggest defining rapping alone (straight MC’in) as music unless you are willing to call a poetry reading (or prose reading) as music as well.
Whether or not rap (or any particular rap song) is good music is a different question.
The OP opined that Rap is the most versatile music, however I do not think that rap is any more versatile than any form of pop music. Like all pop music, rap music has its own set of boundries which it must adhere to in order to stay within the genre. Because the use of sampling from other genres falls within the genre of rap it may seem that rap is more versatile than it really is, however sampling is only one musical idea, and rap is unable to take advantage of many other musical ideas that other pop music genres have access to (the complete absence of vocals for instance).
Also, it is important to remember that versatility doesn’t always equal quality.
Without any doubt I would say that modern jazz and modern “classical” music are the most versatile. There are virtually no set boundries in these genres. They can use any combination of instruments, vocals, speech, noises, rhythms, melodies, harmonizations, style, form, duration, sampling, electronics, or lack thereof that hey want and still be considered within their genre.