This is such bullshit. Music is created by conscious effort… period. Monkeys don’t know they’r creating anything. Hitting my keys as I type this is making a sound, but not “music”. However if I do this: isisi s sjjdjjjai ad disjh kdkd s …I am trying to create something, it may suck and it does, but YOU or no one else has the right to tell me it isn’t music…just that it’s not your taste.
I feel for gex gex he steps up to the plate everytime one of these stupid threads pop up and try’s to fight the fight…but has they say, how can you expect to have a rational discussion with a person whose opinion is based in irrationality?
This…and I’m not trying to insult ANYONE, reminds me of the debates with the creationists or the racists…who use ** their own ** definitions too. Everytime Gex Gex shows make a point, the line gets pushed back…“there’s no written lyrics in Rap…sure there is”, “Well they don’t use instrutments…sure they do”, Well they don’t…and the list goes on and on…
What is it about this stuff thats makes some people have to reduce it to the level of a monkey banging a pot? Why are you fighting so hard to prove that it’s not Music?
Perhaps this is the one time that the “Jungle” music hasn’t been co-opted by the masses and you just can’t stand it? Jazz and Rock and Roll were all considered not really music too, until the dominate culture got their hooks into it…but RAP is different isn’t it? For some reason the mainstream can’t do it right, can’t reduce it or water it down enough for the general population and so they must denigrate it.
These reminds me of the old Disco era, my roommate hated it with a passion…wouldn’t go out dancing, nothing. Then finally I cornered him and asked why…expecting the usual, “I can’t dance to that stuff…” Instead I received the honest answer…“Those niggers and fags think they’re so special…” and he hated the music for it…because he hated them.
Wait, are you implying that I’m a rascist because I don’t like rap? Awesome.
I brought up the monkey thing again because apparantly gex gex doesn’t consider banging on a pot music (for good reason), but he would consider screaming the national anthem with modem accompaniment music.
So where exactly is the line between noise and music? Is it purpose or isn’t it?
I’m not implying anything, but I suggest that a little introspection is needed for some people. I happened to start at your post.
Not liking RAP is fine, not considering RAP music because of “X” and when “X” is proven, changing it to “Y”, then pushing the line futher and futher back tells be something else is going on, not just a personal distaste.
So? Why does Chronos get to change the definitions of words?
What if my definition of B-flat is different? Can I call it a F-sharp?
Because it’s wrong? I don’t particularly like a lot of rap, but to try to redefine a word just to to avoid calling it “music” is silly and insulting to to those who create it and those who enjoy it.
Ok Holmes I happen to agree with your general points in this thread but seriously, rap is as mainstream as it gets. I would say that rap is more mainstream right now than rock.
And yes there is a crapload of watered-down rap out there and there has been for some time: MC Hammer, Puff Daddy (P-Diddy), NAS, Coolio, Vanilla Ice, 3rd Base, etc.
Remember in the “Old” days, Black music was usually ‘watered’ down by having white people perform it…for Little Richard, we got Pat Boone, for the Jackson 5, there was the Osmonds, for the New Edition, we got Kids on the Block…etc and Rock and Roll became overwhelming White.
Bands like In Living Color or Fishbone find themselves without a home, because our culture can no longer see Black people has Rock musicians anymore…but that’s ANOTHER highjack…
The face of RAP music is still overwhelmingly Black and yes while the music can be as POP as Justin Timerland, Coolio ain’t no Justin Timerlake.
That’s the reason why RAP isn’t really music mantra bugs me so much, I’ve heard it all before…
OK, color me confused. When I was in college (1995-1999, in a suburb of Philadelphia), “hip-hop” meant the melodic audio entertainment characteristic of the inner-city culture, while rap was the non-melodic audio entertainment characteristic of the inner-city culture. Now, maybe Villanova was too far out in the suburbs to be well-attuned to inner-city culture, and maybe the meaning of the terms has changed since then. But based on the usage of the terms with which I’m familiar, I agree that hip-hop is music, but not that rap is music. If I’m understanding the present conversation correctly, then rap and hip-hop are synonymously being defined as the audio entertainment of the inner-city culture, regardless of whether it’s melodic. In that case, I would say that some rap is music and some rap is not.
Bands like In Living Color or Fishbone find themselves without a home, because our culture can no longer see Black people has Rock musicians anymore…but that’s ANOTHER highjack…
/QUOTE]
I have been loathe to define music in this thread; it’s not an easy thing to do. Indeed as seen in this thread (see pg 4), previously referenced by da lovin’ dj, it’s been the subject of much academic study, which mostly determined that music isn’t an easy thing to define.
However, Jovan made a post in that thread which I feel does a reasonable job of defining what music. I’ll reproduce part of that post here:
I apologise for the length of the quote, but I think it is all important to the discussion. So, in accordance with this quote, I think that if you were banging that pot because of certain qualities of that sound, then, Schaeffer, and I would conclude that you were making music. Perhaps most unpleasant music, but still, music.
What is so frustrating about these discussions is not the discussion on what music is (a quite interesting topic), but that they always concern people trying to claim that a form of music that is not unusual is not actually music. It is somewhat akin to debating evolution with creationists. There are many interesting discussions to be had about evolution, but whether it’s a valid science is not one of them.
It’s not even rap that I am defending here; merely music that exists outside the banner of “music popular and recognisable to the classic rock audience.” Because the definitions and restrictions being placed on music here ignore that completely. Rap is not a particularly unusual form of music. It has been around for nearly 30 years. It has melodic components, and it is based on an extremely fundamental musical concept: rhythm. Yet people still try to dismiss it, and if Hail Ants is any indication of these people, they have little knowledge outside the record collection they grew up with (and a few popular examples from recent years). To claim to be an authority with such limited knowledge is audacious in the extreme.
Take Radiohead, for instance. They are a rock band, known for their inventiveness and it would be a rare person who would deny that what they do is music. I mean, it’s a simple proposition: they get in a studio, with some instruments, some machines, and after a while they’ve got a record.
But take a listen to their second most recent album, Amnesiac. Sandwiched between a piano ballad and a quite moody rock song with a blues riff is track 3, called Pull/Pulk Revolving Doors. Rolling Stone said of it “[lead singer]Yorke’s pitch-shifted speaking voice lists various doors above a battered, muffled, half-reversed rhythm sequence.” This accurately describes the song. It is almost completely a rhythm sequence: industrial crunches banging in pattern. At times, it will all pause for a short (1 or 2 bar) keyboard line. The voice is spoken and rendered alien through effects.
I refuse to believe that Radiohead went into the studio for 18 months (or whatever - it was a long time) and came out with a record that contained 10 pieces of music, and in the middle, something that wasn’t music. What happened? They intended it to be music? Did they just forget how to compose for a while?
Not likely. It was a piece of music. You’re not going to hear it on the charts, or on your average Pink Floyd album, but it’s still music (nor is it really different, if you look at the musical landscape as a whole). And anyone who cannot bring themselves to accept something as inherently musical as rap as music, could not possibly accept this Radiohead song as music.
I think that if you refuse to see works based on rhythm as music, while world renowned rock bands are making rhythmic compositions that are widely seen as music, it might just possibly be you who is wrong.
Hey thanks! I’m glad my effort is noticed. I also agree with you that while rap has become mainstream, it has still maintained its connection to its roots - in this is hasn’t been watered down. There is no true rap equivalent of Pat Boone. Even P Diddy raps about guns. Even Nelly upsets people when his songs are performed at the superbowl.
Well, I’m confused now, too. I’m not sure what you are calling rap and what you’re calling hip hop. Could you give any example to help me out here?
In my mind, both rap and hip hop are (usually) as melodic as each other. De La Soul, NWA, Dr Dre and Snoop were all hip hop, but they rapped. As I said before, one may seek to legitimise them by calling them hip hop, or denigrate them by calling them rap, but this tends to (and always has, to my knowledge) refer to their connection to the culture. As is often said, hip hop is something you live, rap is something you do. Perhaps instrumental hip hop like DJ Shadow, or derivatives such as Massive Attack are more melodic, but they don’t usually factor in these discussion of rap as a broad phenomenon. Could you possibly give me an example of what you consider rap and what you consider hip hop? Because I have no idea where you are coming from.
Well, dictionary.com calls a poem “A verbal composition designed to convey experiences, ideas, or emotions in a vivid and imaginative way, characterized by the use of language chosen for its sound and suggestive power and by the use of literary techniques such as meter, metaphor, and rhyme.” Without really considering the implications, I can agree with this.
Jabberwocky is certainly a poem, so one cannot exclude yours on the basis that it is not made up of real words. Perhaps there wasn’t much thought into the way you used the sounds of the language, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Yep, that’s a poem. Yeah, it’s shit. What’s your point?
I’m not certain if your composition is rap. I’d have to hear it; rap does refer to a certain style, particularly pertaining to the rhythmic quality of the delivery. If you rapped the preamble, then it’s rap. If you didn’t, it probably isn’t, but given the definition of music I used above, I’d say its music.
Sorry for the length of my post. There’s a lot to cover.
This made me remember a friend of mine who is an amazing drummer and is also deaf. He started drumming by playing drums using spoons as sticks and pots and pans as drums - It absolutely kicked ass, if I could have recorded it and sampled it I would have.
Thats all i’m going to add to this discussion just 'cos I thought it was interesting, gex gex and all the others have made far better arguments than I could about this subject so i’ll leave it at that.
please it is way easier to write good lyrics than it is to write and perform well on an instrument…yeah I am sure you could just pick up any instrument and be better than anyone who has been playing for years.
I bought a guitar once. I learned a Danzig song, a Rolling Stones song, several Nirvana songs, several Bob Marley songs and of course the required House of the Rising Sun all proficiently in the course of about a week. I even wrote a little tune of my own.
Not the hardest songs, I’ll admit, but I’d like to see you write some lyrics that won’t get laughed at with only a week to practice.
Oh, and if you want to look at it another way - why do you think there are 3 or 4 instrumentalists to every lyricist in most bands?
Getting back to the issue of the most versatile music, I would say that Christian rock is the most versatile genre. Take any old song, throw in some lyrics about Jesus, or really anything vaguely uplifting, and there you go. It doesn’t even have to rock. In fact, judging from the Christian rock I’ve heard, it helps if it doesn’t.
I don’t know. How do you define “music?” I always thought that in involved changes in tone. I’m not sure how someone spewing things about bitches, hos, pimps, and magic sticks in nearly monotone voice qualifies.
Wow cause all those songs are so hard to play…let’s see you play some trey anastasio. But you seem to be missing the point I am not talking about playing covers, I mean original work hell except for some of the fastest rap I am sure I could rap to pre-existing songs, and in fact have done so with some rap-style music they are not stretching the limits of singing by any means.
Just the fact that many instruments take years of practice before the player becomes a virtuoso (if he does) would prove (at least to me) that playing music on an instrument and writing good music is way more difficult than rapping which does not take nearly as much time. And besides that I am sure many rappers write their lyrics after hearing the music so they are leaning on the music for the tone and flow of the words, the timing, etc.
