[Michael Jackson]
You’re ignorant. That’s ignorant.
Honestly…this is pretty much an unwinnable argument from either side, but just know that I realize and respect how hard it is to master a guitar or a set of drums. However, I also know how hard it is to master a pen and pad and I happen to be of the (somewhat experienced) opinion that the latter is at least as hard, if not harder, than the former.
In replying to Cisco:
Sure playing an instrument and singing both take talent but singing is a talent that seems innate in a greater number of people than playing an instrument. It is probably just the fact that not as many people ever attempt to play an instrument. But anyways if a person has a gift for singing it is a talent that takes less effort to cultivate and grow than does playing an instrument. Most people have at least a little singing talent, but all that aside the majority of rap I have heard is not really as much singing as it is more like freestyle poetry and the creativity is not really the sound but the words.
Cisco, I’m still interested in seeing you back up your earlier claim. I quoted it a few posts back if you don’t remember (post # 74).
Sure, Johnny. Here you go:
“None of that is music because I don’t like it.”
Because let’s be honest, that’s what all the arguments against rap here boil down to.
No, that’s not what they boil down to at all. You either haven’t been reading the thread or you’re reneging on your claim.
Which is fine, because it was a patently ridiculous one to make in the first place.
How about we go over some of the patently ridiculous claims in this thread, Johnny?
Complete and utter ignorance. Ever heard the roots? Ever heard the Blackeyed Peas? Ever heard MOST rap? Just because Puff Daddy had a few radio songs with beats that were basically “covers” doesn’t mean all rap is “stolen.”
Wow, I didn’t heard THAT in 1985…
Jewel gets off the hook no problem but guys like KRS-One, Common, and Talib Kweli get lumped into the category of “bad poets” that “steal beats.” Stealing is illegal. I don’t know one rapper that has ever gone to jail for “stealing beats.”
Hmmm, let’s see here. Tune: * a succession of pleasing musical tones*. Oh, I get it. You’re saying rap is not music because you don’t like it.
Oh they’re not? Hmmm…
Tone:
1 : vocal or musical sound of a specific quality <spoke in low tones> <masculine tones>; especially : musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression
2 a : a sound of definite pitch and vibration b : WHOLE STEP
3 : accent or inflection expressive of a mood or emotion
4 : the pitch of a word often used to express differences of meaning
Oops, looks like rap has tone. Must be music. Damn those kids these days…
Whoa, let me break out my slide rule to try and formulate and argument against this one…
There’s no anti-rap sentiment on these boards!
Right. Because we all know that all rap songs are about bitches, hoes, pimps, and magic sticks. Just like all Rock’n’Roll songs are about Satan.
Any other greatly profound arguments as to why rap isn’t music?
Oh, and since those were the only claims against rap being music that I saw in this thread, and I think I sufficiently proved them all to be “patently ridiculous”, I’ll restate my claim that Beethoven, Billie Holliday, Led Zeppellin, Bob Marley, Johnny Cash, Ledbelly, The Ramones, Hank Williams Sr., Men At Work and Bad Religion aren’t music because I-DON’T-LIKE-THEM.
I think from a lot of the posts here that people think that rap is simply someone talking or reciting a type of poetry with no musical backing. Do you realise that the vast majority of good rappers write their music as well or does that not count? Surely if I write a song that has a beat and various instruments playing and didn’t add any vocals at all that is still considered to be music? So when you add any vocals, whether sung in the 'traditional sense or rapped, over the top of the backing music it is still music isn’t it? I think that the vast majority of (uninformed) opinions have been made on the basis of listening to chart rap which is akin to saying you think that all classical music is shit after hearing a muzak version of Beethovens fifth in a lift.
Lets face it, you don’t like rap thats fine - but I am flabbergasted that you can’t see that in the everday definition of music, rap is music.
I’d also like to add that IMHO about 95% of all from any genre is shit so unless you listen to a very broad range you are limiting yourself. I also am not a huge fan of rap but I find that on a board that is dedicated to fighting ignorance there seems to be a very ignorant attitude to whether rap counts as music or not. Do dictionary definitions mean anything anymore or can we just invent our own personal definitions now?
Ok, ok, ok, Rap is (in your definition) music, but I (in my opinion) still think it sucks and I don’t think it’s music OR art!.
Buh-bye
Unclviny
I think the argument has boiled down to whether it falls under the definition of music not personal taste and I think that it is quite obvious it does. Its nothing to do with ‘your’ or ‘their’ definition rather than ‘the’ defintion of music. You do accept that in order to communicate properley we have to agree on a common meaning of a word or communication breaks down. Rap meets the dictionary definition of music, ergo it is music. If I called you a dick but my personal definition of ‘dick’ meant ‘really cool bloke’ would you be offended or not?
It is posts like this that make me wonder why I bother. I’m going to try to keep this from being pitworthy.
pool, please tell me what happened here. Do you have some sort of memory problem which causes you to simply forget things moments after you’ve read them? Do you have some sort of condition giving you such a short attention span that you are rendered unable to concentrate on a thread? Or could you be so goddamn proud of your own ignorant opinions that you DON’T EVEN BOTHER TO READ A THREAD BEFORE POSTING IN IT???
I’ve responded to this piece of crap a million times in this thread alone. So many people have bleated that same supposedly original thought that even if the content of your post had any merit, it would still be entirely useless.
Since I doubt even now that you’ll bother checking out my other posts, I’ll give you a brief rundown of the points I’ve made in response to others posting the same glurge you have. Let’s call it “Why You’re Wrong 101.” There will be in the exam at the end of semester, so you’d better go over it carefully. I recommend you print it out, and review it each time you plan to post in this thread.
Really, most pop music is incredibly simple. Most rock songs, for instance are very easy to play. How can you possibly claim some sort of high ground for music made by live instruments, when the most celebrated popular proponents of this music are hardly virtuosos? Ramones tracks are not hard to play. Who tracks, Rolling Stones tracks, Beatles tracks are not hard to play. You don’t need to be a genius to strum Yesterday, considered one of the greatest songs of the last century. This is another tragic part of this hip hop hatred: fans of rock n roll have forgotten that their music is meant to be simple and democratic. The glory of rock n roll was not some wanker listening to Pink Floyd in quadraphonic sound, but that any idiot could pick up a guitar and use it to express himself, using passion rather than technical proficiency. Go get on your fucking high horse about Classical music, but don’t dismiss hip hop as something requiring no talent (not true) when most other forms of popular music are equally as simple. Because Trey Anastasio isn’t popular music. Go tell some rock greats they were talentless before you start criticising hip hop for its simplicity.
You denigrate lyric writing, again odd. Forget hip hop for the moment, let’s look at Bob Dylan. Dylan’s songs are ridiculously easy to play. I could play “Hey Mr Tambourine Man” in sixth grade after I’d been playing guitar for a week. And hell, it sure ain’t his voice that’s made him so respected. Do you think maybe that lyric writing is a skill at least equal to playing an instrument? Or, no wait, are you going to try telling me that John Mayer, apparently a very skilled guitarist, is better than Dylan because Dylan is only some dumb lyric writer, but Mayer has a real skill? Give me a fucking break.
You ignore that rappers are not just lyricists. Rapping is a difficult skill, at least as difficult as playing an instrument. It also takes years of practice. Those guys you hear on MTV, even the worst rappers out there, have been developing the skill for years. And I tell you, it’s a lot harder than mastering the chords to “I Wanna Be Sedated.” Because, despite what you think, it is more about the sound than the words. Have you heard the word ‘flow?’ It refers to the sound of a rappers’ words, and it is very important. Good rap is defined by the control a rapper has over their voice, their use of rhythm and the timbre and sound of their voice. This is not to say that lyrics are unimportant, just secondary to the actual sound of the voice. You may think you can rap, despite having no practice. I call on you to put your money where your mouth is - I’ll upload an original instrumental as an mp3, and you can show us how good you are. Get a mic, do your own song. Hey, if it’s so easy we’ll become world famous. Just remember to say “bling” a lot :rolleyes:
As I said, it is both, but you are ignoring the other skills required. Let’s have a look at rapper Kanye West:
I’m fucking sick of having to defend this music all the time. Why must it only be hip hop that has to maintain an impossibly perfect standard? No one goes around claiming rock n roll is shit because of the presence of Bon Jovi and Good Charlotte. Yet someone sees one Puffy video and starts telling the world that hip hop has no value. No one goes around saying rock lyrics are meaningless just because they hear a Linkin Park song. But one party track and suddenly hip hop is all about guns and hos.
Or this, posted by Snooooopy:
No one criticises guitarists because there are unimaginative ones like those in Matchbox 20 or Train. No one says “I have no problem with guitar playing as a form of creativity, but I am frequently disappointed by how banal so many rock artists are.”
Why must rap be the only genre that is consistently judged by its lowest examples rather than its highest? It is truly shameful the ignorance shown in this thread. Even after people who have studied music have posted that they consider rap to be music (I’m not appealing to their authority, but that they have made good arguments based on sound principles and years of study), people continue posting the same ignorant arguments. How sad that many of these posters can sensibly debate the merits of abortion or the death penalty, but when confronted with a form of music they don’t like they start rabidly screaming “it’s not music!” and “it takes no talent.” pool, unclviny, Johnny Bravo, Alcatraz, Hail Ants, others: grow the fuck up.
gex gex, I take my hat off to you and offer you the most heartfelt of my respect, well said my friend. 
I constantly have arguments with people about similar subjects, usually the use of the dreaded ‘machine’ that ‘makes’ music. I have no idea how someone could be so dense as to think that music made on a computer is any more or less relevant than music played on a traditional instrument. Newsflash - it is an instrument and can be used as well or as badly as any other instrument in existence and takes a long time to become an expert. I wonder if the guy who invented the piano had problems like this with the harpsichord fans?
If the only examples of a genre of music you have are gleaned from the pop charts can you try and remember that in all probability it is a bad example.
Not only does it meet the dictionary definition, it meets any practical definition. Rap is treated as music by its creators, by the record companies, by record stores, by journalists & reviewers, and by the public in general.
Sorry guys I guess your right talking to a looped song is really hard. :rolleyes:
I suggest you take any further comments to the pit.
haha it is to laugh
Your ignorance on this subject is staggering, I doff my hat to you sir.
thanks baby
funny how things change rapi s now one of the most versatile genres out there