Unfortunately, unless he’s stated something since last night, I have no idea of where he stands on much of anything. He just spouted some bullshit in an OP and refuses to elaborate. Most of what he posted in that thread is just disagreeing with whoever posted last, regardless of what that last poster said.
Perhaps, but that was not my question. Is there any criticism at all over which Kerry supporters would not cringe? If your contention is that RazorSharp’s particular criticism of Kerry is misguided, then what criticism do you believe would be defensible?
Maybe you’ve found Razorsharp’s criticism… I still haven’t. I saw the question that he wanted to pose to Kerry…
No criticism there, just a question…
When posters responded with their opinions that Kerry wouldn’t release Sadaam, we get this…
That’s an opinion of what Kerry may think, but not a criticism of anything Kerry has done or said.
After that, the thread gets semi-hijacked by the OP himself…
And the reponders try to explain to the OP how search warrants work. Now, if you can find a legitimate criticism of Kerry somewhere in that thread, let me know what it is.
Also, I don’t see anyone cringing. unless that word has a different definition than the one I normally would use.
Isn’t that rather up to RazorSharp? If he presents a ludicrous false dilemma, as he did, and is consequently called on it, it’s not really incumbent on those who call him on it to help him out with a real argument. I don’t see what point you’re trying to make, unless it’s somehow that because Kerry supporters will accept no criticism whatsoever, their protestations at stupid criticism are worthless. Surely one can take such objections as they come. RazorSharp’s proposition (that Kerry must support Hussein’s release) is as daft as they get (well, excepting the “Bush had a cheat sheet” one, I guess), and it doesn’t matter who says it.
I guess since I’m feeling charitable I’ll suggest a valid criticism, though; Kerry’s sounding off about outsourcing and protectionism smacks of populism, with worrying implications for the progress of free trade under a Kerry administration. I suspect this isn’t snappy enough for RazorSharp, though, and I’d be surprised if he himself were sanguine about outsourcing, too. Most other criticisms I have of Kerry are typical of the entire US political arena, and thus aren’t very interesting (failure to oppose the death penalty, failure to support gay marriage, etc. etc.). Of course, once he starts doing things, assuming he wins, then there will be criticisms aplenty.
Actually, no - political correctness, to me, is when someone states what they consider to be a “hard truth” - maybe they think affirmative action shows inappropriate favoritism or that one group of people by race, gender or something simply can’t perform with the rest of people. Whatever.
The point is - that “hard truth” can be delivered thoughtfully and diplomatically, or rudely. One can say something like: “I know some folks will consider this inappropriate, but IMHO I think we need to look at…” One can disagree with the position and call it politically incorrect, but the person is not exhibiting bad manners within the context of a GD.
But Razorsharp instead, does what Who Me? describes:
That, to me, is rude.
And Razorsharp still hasn’t shown up in this thread to defend himself. What a twit.
Liberal - I am not pitting Razorsharp because he criticised Kerry. I am pitting the dipstick because his debate style is exactly as described - post a ridiculous premise, insult anyone who dares to tell him he’s wrong, then throw up as many unrelated issues as possible whilst being sure to disagree violently with whoever posted last. I personally pitted him because he called me a liar. If he had simply told me I was wrong, I could accept that, but I am not a liar and take great offence when someone calls me that.
While I believe Razorsharp is an asshat, I would not pit him simply because he criticized Kerry.
Just for honor’s sake, here are some valid Kerry criticisms, all of which make me cringe a bit to support him:
Trying to act as a populist whilst worth millions of dollars is pretty hypocritical
Complaining about a war, and throwing away medals won in that war, then trotting out your record from that war, is pretty damn disrespectful of those you served with, and is really damn hypocritical to boot
Getting an inexperienced running mate from a southern state, just to balance the ticket, is incredibly risky and might backfire on Kerry in his bid
If he had posted any of those, I would attempt to argue, but would do so in calm, civil tones and accept defeat if my argument was not strong enough.
Hell, if he had posted a valid complaint of any sort, regardless of it’s correctness, I would not have pitted him.
What he posted instead, was a hypothetical, inflammatory, and highly partisan question, to which many attempted to formulate hypothetical answers, to which he responded by venting his spleen at them.
I stand down, GomiBoy. You have made a compelling argument.
Well, I am pretty new at this, so getting validation from someone of your experience feels pretty nice.
So thanks.
Except that none are deserved at all, as this whole “pitting” of fellow members thing is silly and immature. :dubious:
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Bush did & does the exact same thing- or don’t you know Bush is filthly rich also?
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He had a valid complaint about that war, and why we were there. OTOH, while he served in that war, he did so with honour and bravery. Nothing hypocritical about that. It’s called “doing your duty even though you disagree with the Administration”, and it’s the opposite of being a hypocrite.
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Edwards is a US Senator, and was a very viable candidate in his own right. This is actually one of the best & smartest moves Kerry did.
But that does not mitigate the complaint about Kerry. It is a mere tu quoque.
I don’t think that’s what GomiBoy meant. The hypocrisy is in using the war in whatever way you find politically expedient. If you throw away your medals and criticize the war, fine: it is an unambiguous statement of opposition. But don’t come forward when it is convenient for you and use the war you’ve condemned for political gain. I would respect him more if he still said, “Yes, I tossed those medals. I’m ashamed of them. It was a ghastly war, and we should never have been there.”
Again, you miss GomiBoy’s point. He did not say that Edwards is unqualified or not viable, but that the decision made by Kerry was not a good one. It brought a ton of baggage and paid very little fare.
Damn it, Liberal, you beat me to the punch! I do like your turn of phrase, though - “brought lots of baggage but paid little fare” I am going to steal for sure! 
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Yes, Bush is as rich, if not richer than Kerry, and yes, both try to play ‘Common Man’ to the electorate. It pisses me off when either of them talks about understanding the pain of the poor or the jobless, as neither has ever experienced any of it. Does this invalidate my point that Kerry is a hypocrite for doing so simply because Bush is a hyprocrite as well?
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Yes he did have a complaint, and voiced that complaint well, and accomplished good things by doing so. But trotting out his war record and pumping it up in order to help him get elected President stinks of hypocrisy. Please see Liberal’s response, as that is exactly what I meant.
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I know he’s a senator. A one-term senator, who hasn’t even filled that much of a role, coming from a purely civil background, with no experience (other than his short time in senate and even fewer actual votes) of any sort of politics, even at a local level. He is a political black hole, and as a result of which I find it pretty hard to throw my support behind him, even though I support Kerry. Besides, there were, IMO, better candidates. Kerry should have tried to romance a centrist (could you imagine how hard it would be for Bush / Cheney to beat Kerry / McCain?) or maybe even a Republican as his running mate. Then he would have stiched up the election and rather than have a potential liability on his ticket.
But none of that’s really the point,
Any of these can be a topic for debate (and have and will continue to be), and whilst I think they are potentially damaging to Kerry, you do not. Therefore we can debate and discuss and talk about why we each think the way we do.
If you or I, for instance, were to bring any of these premises up in a GD thread, they could be talked about them like reasonable adults, exchange ideas, maybe you change my mind, maybe I change yours; either way we both win, as we’re both more informed as a result of it.
My problem with Razorsharp is that he does none of these things, for reasons already thoroughly stated. He wants to use a GD thread like a pulpit, and when I didn’t let him, he personally insulted me.
As for pitting ‘fellow members’ I won’t apologize for that - that’s what the pit is here for, amongst other things (like complaining about moderators / management, and just plain ol’ fashioned venting)
I’d suggest that you go watch “Going Upriver” if you want to understand better the sort of emotions that were involved in the tossing of the medals. For many of them, it was one of the most difficult and emotional things that they did. They did not do it lightly but because they felt it was important to take such a step to show just how strongly they felt that the war was wrong. (If they had tossed something that had no significance to them, it wouldn’t be as strong a statement, no?)
I don’t think it is right for you to tell someone that they can’t have a mixture of emotions about their service…That they can’t feel great pride and that they gave up a lot, some making the ultimate sacrifice, in order to do defend the nation. That they then came to realize that this sacrifice wasn’t really necessary for the defense of the nation does not belittle that sacrifice. It belittles only the policymakers who misled them and the nation.
Oh, thanks a ton, Daniel. Now every time I see his name, my head will be full of “2 Legit…2 Legit to Quit” and “Hammertime.” You bastard.
And GomiBoy, it really aint worth it. Razorsharp has proven himself to be a complete idiot who refuses to support his arguments, uninterested in debate, and quick to go for the insult, even in GD. Don’t even bother with him.
never doubted for a minute that it was a strong gesture of support for his personal cause, and also never thought that it was a simple or easy gesture. I am a veteran, albeit not with the same types of experiences as Kerry. For me to throw away my medals would be a huge statement.
My point was that he has explained the throwing away of medals in a wishy-washy way and although I believe the Swifties are a bunch of partisan fuckwits, I think they have a valid point about being insulted by Kerry’s use of the Vietnam War in later years to support his political aspirations. That’s the hypocrisy - if he had answered as Liberal suggested, then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Thing is - he didn’t. It is the one thing that he really is wishy-washy on, and I don’t like that.
And just to confirm - I think we agree that one can serve honorably in a dishonorable situation, and many Vietnam vets feel exactly as you do and exactly as Kerry (I think) does. I just don’t like politicians using things like that for political gain.
I notice he hasn’t responded directly to me in the original GD thread, so I am tending to agree with you… I might respond to his posts in future, but only to destroy his premise as well as I am able…
It’s usually quite easy. He’s only got a couple tricks. The “male abortion” which is BS because he’s deluded into believing in a legislative/judicial conspiracy to give women an “out” post-conception which men don’t have. The 17th amendment, which is usually a non-starter because no one really cares if senators are elected at large or by majorities of the state legislatures. Then he’s got some quirks related to gun control, but those aren’t anything special either.
Enjoy,
Steven
Razorsharp once described himself as “A liberal’s worst nightmare: A redneck with a gun permit and a library card.”
So, he has a library card. So, he reads. I think it was Voltaire who penned the epigraph: “This book is a mirror. When a monkey looks in, no philosopher looks out.”
And a library card != reading, for that matter. There’s plenty of DVDs and video tapes at my local library.