Reading the Odyssey book by book - an ongoing discussion

My spouse and I have just begun reading the Odyssey. We’re going at a casual pace, taking it one book (chapter) at a time and then discussing things that stand out.

Once upon a time I was a classics student, and though I never read the Odyssey in its entirety, I am pretty familiar with the characters and major episodes contained therein.

I’m already two books in, and thought it might be fun to make a post per book with my own reflections and spark some discussion here on the SDMB!

To start with, I’m reading the Odyssey in translation. I already had a few translations on my shelf (from my student days), but for this read we’re going with the new 2018 translation by Emily Wilson.

When I was a student I was exposed to translations by Fagels (1996) and Fitzgerald (1961). It’s pretty stunning to compare the differences between even just these three, and understand what an undertaking translation is.

Take just the opening lines of the poem:

Fitzgerald (1961)
Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story
of that man skilled in all ways of contending,
the wanderer, harried for years on end,
after he plundered the stronghold
on the proud height of Troy.

He saw the townlands
and learned the minds of many distant men,
and weathered many bitter nights and days
in his deep heart at sea, while he fought only
to save his life, to bring his shipmates home.
But not by will nor valor could he save them,
for their own recklessness destroyed them all-
children and fools, they killed and feasted on
the cattle of Lord Helios, the Sun,
and he who moves all day through heaven
took from their eyes the dawn of their return.

Of these adventures, Muse, daughter of Zeus,
tell us in our time, lift the great song again.

Fagels (1996)
Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns…
driven time and again off course, once he had plundered
the hallowed heights of Troy.
Many cities of men he saw and learned their minds,
many pains he suffered, heartsick on the open sea,
fighting to save his life and bring his comrades home.
But he could not save them from disaster, hard as he strove-
the recklessness of their own ways destroyed them all,
the blind fools, they devoured the cattle of the Sun
and the Sungod blotted out the day of their return.
Launch out on his story. Muse, daughter of Zeus,
start from where you will - sing for our time too.

Wilson (2018)
Tell me about a complicated man.
Muse, tell me how we wandered and was lost
when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy,
and where he went, and who he met, the pain
he suffered on the sea, and how he worked
to save his life and bring his men back home.
He failed, and for their own mistakes, they died.
They ate the Sun God’s cattle, and the god
kept them from home. Now goddess, child of Zeus,
tell the old story for our modern times.
Find the beginning.

Dramatic differences, and these are just three of many translations that have been done.

Right off the bat, as a casual student of classics, I was struck by the lack of the “sing, Muse” construction. I’m so used to hearing it that it was conspicuously absent. I also found (and continue to find) this translation an “easy” read… it flows comfortably and I rarely get lost in complex sentence structure.

Wilson talks about some of her guiding objectives in her translator’s notes, including:

  • Maintaining the same number of lines as the original, and casting it into iambic pentamater. She makes this choice because “any translation without such limitations will tend to be longer than the original, and I wanted a narrative pace that could match its stride to Homer’s nimble gallop", and because iambic pentamater, being familiar to readers and listeners of English poetry, will feel natural and comfortable for English-speaking readers.
  • Simplicity of language. She claims “in using language that is largely simple, my goal is not to make Homer sound “primitive,” but to mark the fact that stylistic pomposity is entirely un-Homeric.
  • Differing translations of epithets depending on context. For those who are familiar with Homer and other ancient texts, you might know that repeated epithets are a hallmark of the works, providing recognizable phrases that can help ground the listener within a longer work. Gray-eyed Athena, the wine-dark sea, Earth-shaker Poseidon being a few. Wilson says: “I have used the opportunity offered by the repetitions to explore the multiple different connotations of each epithet. The enduring Odysseus can be a “veteran” or “resilient” or “stoical,” while the wily Odysseus can be a “trickster” or speak “deceitfully,” depending on the needs of a particular passage.
  • Wilson also is concerned with revealing truths about the source material, which might have been glossed or altered by the lens through which other translations have been made. She writes: “… The Odyssey is a poem that may seem to normalize or valorize the treatment of non-Western people as monsters. I have made clear, especially in my version of the Polyphemus episode, that this is not entirely true: the text allows for a certain amount of sympathy and even admiration for this maimed non-Greek person. Unlike many modern translators, I have avoided describing the Cyclops with words such as “savage,” which carry with them the legacy of early modern and modern forms of colonialism- a legacy that is, of course, anachronistic in the world of The Odyssey.
    The elite households represented in The Odyssey all include a large staff of domestic slaves to work in the house, preparing and serving food and taking care of their masters’ clothes, and field slaves to work the estate and tend the animals. The language used to describe these people poses a particular challenge to the translator. To translate a domestic female slave, called in the original a dmoe (“female-house-slave”), as a “maid” or “domestic servant” would imply that she was free. I have often used “slave,” although it is less specific than many of the terms for types of slaves in the original. The need to acknowledge the fact and the horror of slavery, and to mark the fact that the idealized society depicted in the poem is one where slavery is shockingly taken for granted, seems to me to outweigh the need to specify, in every instance, the type of slave.

There is much more in her notes at the beginning of the book, and they make interesting and thoughtful reading even if you are not planning on reading her translation.

Say what now? There may be some of that in the Odyssey (I haven’t read it a while). But Polyphemus seems to be a terrible example. Is he necessarilly evil because he is a giant with one eye? no. Is he evil because he imprisons Odysseus and his crew so he can eat them? I would say yes. Was Scylla originally just an innocent victim? Absolutely. Does she now eat any passing sailor she can grab? That would also be yes.

I am not sure this is is true. Did the Greeks view some other people as ‘savage’ or ‘uncivilized’ ? It seems likely, And again, we are describing somebody who imprisons humans so that he can eat them. I feel savage is the right word here.

I read the Fitzgerald translation as a freshman in High School and fell in love with it. Four years later I re-read it as a college freshman. Since then I’ve re-read it countless times.

I got the Fagels translation as an audiobook – read by Ian McKellen(!), and I long ago lost count of how many times I have listened to it (I haven’t found an audio version of the Fitzgerald translation). I’ve read short bits of other (mostly prose) translations.

I don’t find the Fitzgerald and Fagels translations to e that different. I’m unfamiliar with Wilson’s.

If you want a REALLY different translation of Homer, read Christopher Logue’s off-the-wall translation of the Iliad (I prefer Fitzgerald and Fagels for the Iliad, too. Logue didn’t do the Odyssey. In fact, he never completed translating the Iliad)

I forgot- I would like to recommend Let’s Talk About Myths Baby! . The woman who does the podcast has studied the sources for a very long time. She doesn’t leave out details, but her retellings are concise and fun.

Spare some love for the Alexander Pope translation. He wasn’t quite writing halfway in time between now and Homer, but sometimes it feels like it. Done in rhyming couplets, which gives it a certain punchiness, esp if you can read it out loud.

I must admit, I like reading the introductions and translators notes to the Iliad and Odyssey as much as any of the translations themselves, even when I dont know what they are banging on about. I’ve always imagined that they’ve just just iambicizeded their very last pentameter, picked up a glass of wine-dark red and exhaled a long and thoughtful intro, comprising their own journey through the book and its challenges, then packed it up and off to the publisher.

Have you tried the Richmond Lattimore translation? At the college i went to, it was required reading for EVERY student, Iliad and Odyssey both, for decades. I found it stodgy and unnecessarily convoluted. Maybe i should try a livelier translation.

I agree. I haven’t read his translation of the Odyssey, but after I’d read Fitzgerald’s translation of the Odyssey I wanted to read the Iliad, and Fitzgerald hadn’t translated that yet. So I read Lattimore’s. I hated it. It read like the translations I was doing n my Latin class – literal and uninspired. A couple of years later Fitzgerald’s translation of the Iliad came out and I devoured it.

Yeah, I like what I’ve read of the Wilson translation, but that seems super-odd. This is a text that has literal monsters. It’s important to the story that they are monsters. They’re not simply other races or nations of humans (which appear in the Odyssey too, and are depicted differently than the various non-human beings Odysseus encounters).

Somewhere during this process you might want to watch the new movie The Return with Ralph Fiennes and Juliet Binoche. It tells the story of Odysseus’s return to Ithaca.

Their first time appearing together since The English Patient.

One of the problems with myth, and Greek myth especially, because it’s so familiar, is that it’s told by many people over a long period of time, and new authors impose their own interpretations over things. This is especially true of people like Ovid, who had no compunctions about changing myths to suit his sensibilities. It’s in Ovid’s Metamorphoses that Scylla starts out as a beautiful woman who gets changed into a hideous man-eating monster. But it’s pretty clear in Homer that Scylla was always a hideous man-eating monster. Ovid hadn’t written his fanciful take on the story yet. And he wanted to wrote about transformations.

So Homer’s Scylla was only An Innocent Victim in that it was her nature to eat people, and she had no malice in it, because she probably didn’t think much. But people would have felt no moral problems with killing her, any more than killing any man-eating monster. It’s Ovid’s Scylla that’s the real Innocent Victim.

Similarly, it’s only in Ovid and those following him that Medusa was a beautiful woman who was raped in a temple and turned into a monster by Athena. Another case of an Ovidian Metamorphosis and a truly Innocent Victim. In earlier sources, Medusa was a monster all her life, the child of Phorkys (the Old Man of the Sea) and Ketos (The Sea Monster), like her sisters Stheno and Euryale (the other gorgons) and her other triplet disters, the Graiai.

There wasn’t any Grand Master enforcing Consistency throughout the myths – people were only constrained by their reverence for the source material (and myths were religion, you should remember). Although you had people like Apollodorus, who tried to force consistency on the myths in his Library. I think of Apollodorus as the Comic Book Nerd of Greek Mythology.

But the fact that people feel free to change myths and mix and match them is why I don’t get upset when they so seriously mess with the myths in, say, Clash of the Titans (both versions, although screenwriter Beverly Cross in the 1981 clearly has more knowledge of and respect for the source material). And Ovid wasn’t the worst in the ancient world, by a long shot. Have a look at what Dionysius Skytobrachion did to the myths some time.

Oh, I sit corrected- and educated. Thanks!

I too did a little double-take with her choice of Polyphemus to explain her thinking. I don’t want to spend too much time litigating her translation choices, but I think her core point can be summed up as:

  • There is a Greek word (or number of Greek words) that could be translated to the English word “savage”, among other words.

  • That Greek word will have its own meaning and connotations that were self evident to the Greeks at the time, which might or might not always align with the English word savage

  • The word savage has its own connotations and meanings (some of which are in the dictionary, and some of which are not) that might or might not always align with the meaning in the original text

… whether or not she’s right about the word savage as introducing some non-ancient-Greek meaning to the text? Well, I’ll trust her as an expert on this. I at least think that it’s a valid thing to consider, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with considering it, or making the choices she claims to have made.

The fascinating thing about her point, and this discussion, is how translation is really an act of transformation.

Nice recommendation! I’ll definitely check it out.

Ooh, yes! I actually love the idea of assembling a movie list of things to watch once we’re done. I hadn’t heard about this one- I’ll definitely check it out.

I forgot about Lattimore! I don’t have his work at home, but I am pretty sure that I read excerpts at some point.

I’m trying to not get too distracted by this whole question of translation, but I have been going down a small rabbit-hole of reading reviews and commentary on different translations. It’s fascinating how various qualities of translation matter more or less to different reviewers- lending more credence to the understanding that there is room for many translations, as they are all going to reflect the culture and values of the particular translator, and none will be more correct or definitive, except perhaps for a moment.

Tell me about a complicated man.
Muse, tell me how we wandered…

What strikes me most about this translation is its flat, prosaic feel. This is an epic, after all.
And “a complicated man” reminds me too much of “it’s complicated”. Or maybe that’s the contemporary effect that the translation is going for? If so, I’m not impressed.

It reminds me of “he’s a complicated man and no one understands him but his woman”.

The translator’s thinking on just this issue:

I mean, another one you might consider is “Die Hard”.

I might have to read the Odyssey. I read Ulysses every couple of years, it would be interesting to read the original framework.

There are several movies that attempt to tell the story of the Odyssey (Brother, Where art Thou?, interestingly, is one of them, although the guy who wrote it didn’t actually read the Odyssey, so the resemblance is pretty superficial), but the one I like is the Hallmark Hall of Fame version from 1997 starring Armand Assante, and with effects by Jim Henson’s group. It takes some liberties with the story, and some would object to its too-literal interpretation, but I loved it. It didn’t dwell on Polyphemos and Circe so much that it neglected the heart of the story about the homecoming and Odysseus’ dealing with the suitors. Pretty impressive cast, too. Nicholas Meyer (the King of TV movies) and Francis Ford Coppola were producers.

My husband and I have listened to the Fitzgerald translation of both the Iliad and the Odyssey, read by Dan Stevens. He’s a phenomenal reader. It’s available on Audible, with Whispersync, so you can go back and forth between reading and listening.